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The difference is usually defined in terms of workplace power and things of that nature, where as income is just a matter of correlation. So your typical middle-class worker is a college educated (bachelors) white collar worker with some work-place autonomy, but not too much. On the other hand your typical member of the working-class has a high-school education or perhaps a degree from a low-tier university and works primarily blue-collar jobs with little autonomy. Of course these categories have fuzzy borders, so there are careers that are somewhere in the middle and people that are in the middle as well.
Anyhow, its more than just careers and workplace autonomy though, members of different social classes tend to think about the world much differently as well. For example, a prole who becomes a doctor is likely to behave and think about things differently than a kid that grew up in a family of doctors.
This just reminds me of something like "you can take the rat from the hood, but you can't take the hood out the rat."
I can only really speak for myself though and how 'muddied' the class distinctions are, and how, through self-deception or not, true both middle an working class can be.
For all intents and purposes I'm working/middle class. I have a degree from a state school in Philosophy, grew up in a economically lower-middle class neighborhood (next to a refinery) and work a mixed profession whereby I perform both technical work and light manual labor.
Personally, I'm slightly above average intelligence, yet have romantic notions or just plain respect for manual labor. I work on my own car, and fix things when they go wrong at my house.
If someone were to ask me what I am, I'd say middle-class. I have a sense of comfort an leisure that most don't have. Especially in California, where there are people living in multiple family homes, working multiple manual labor (lowskilled) jobs just to make ends meet. Those, I believe, are the true working class.
Now is it self delusion? Does it make me feel better to not be thrown in with the "working class?" I don't know. My wife, on the same token, writes for a living, went to a large university, yet came from a bit higher economic standing (but not by much). She paid her way through school whereas my parents helped me out.
I think, like most things, defining the 'middle-class' by income is the right and really only way to truly measure it. If we try to get all picky about it, and try to define folks like myself or say a Ph.D who takes a $19,000 a year 'research' job (who isn't 'working class,' even though she makes a pittance) then we'll never have any real answers.
Conversely even a liberal interpretation of a draconian notion of the 'bourgeois' doesn't really hold much weight (I'm not totally saying you're saying this but...) here where there are rich and there are cogs. I'm one of the most liberal guys around but even I've noticed that if you put in the effort, in the correct manner, you can live a life of general leisure. And ironically the ones living the upper-middle class lifestyles, perhaps Doctors and Lawyers, are working insane hours and have more things or monetary worth, but less time to enjoy those things.
well, our government has statistics which define this, so i think most people are looking at it in that regard, adjusted of course for areas, which the government does not do.
Statistics that define what? The government isn't in the business of sociology, they collect raw data and report it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp
able to satisfy all of your needs, and some wants, while saving for retirement.
That is far too subjective to be of any real use....
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp
i'm doing pretty well for household income, but i think a $10k annual vacation, a new car every 3-5 years, a mcmansion, expecting to fully pay for college tuition for each kid i have....that's all well beyond middle class. that seems like a fairly extravagent lifestyle to me.
With the exception of the vacations I don't think this is extravagant, buying a new car (or leasing one) every 3~5 years isn't a big deal. McMansions are just large cheaply built homes on small lots, you can buy a McMansion in numerous areas for $200~$300k.
This just reminds me of something like "you can take the rat from the hood, but you can't take the hood out the rat."
I can only really speak for myself though and how 'muddied' the class distinctions are, and how, through self-deception or not, true both middle an working class can be.
For all intents and purposes I'm working/middle class. I have a degree from a state school in Philosophy, grew up in a economically lower-middle class neighborhood (next to a refinery) and work a mixed profession whereby I perform both technical work and light manual labor.
Personally, I'm slightly above average intelligence, yet have romantic notions or just plain respect for manual labor. I work on my own car, and fix things when they go wrong at my house.
If someone were to ask me what I am, I'd say middle-class. I have a sense of comfort an leisure that most don't have. Especially in California, where there are people living in multiple family homes, working multiple manual labor (lowskilled) jobs just to make ends meet. Those, I believe, are the true working class.
Now is it self delusion? Does it make me feel better to not be thrown in with the "working class?" I don't know. My wife, on the same token, writes for a living, went to a large university, yet came from a bit higher economic standing (but not by much). She paid her way through school whereas my parents helped me out.
I think, like most things, defining the 'middle-class' by income is the right and really only way to truly measure it. If we try to get all picky about it, and try to define folks like myself or say a Ph.D who takes a $19,000 a year 'research' job (who isn't 'working class,' even though she makes a pittance) then we'll never have any real answers.
Conversely even a liberal interpretation of a draconian notion of the 'bourgeois' doesn't really hold much weight (I'm not totally saying you're saying this but...) here where there are rich and there are cogs. I'm one of the most liberal guys around but even I've noticed that if you put in the effort, in the correct manner, you can live a life of general leisure. And ironically the ones living the upper-middle class lifestyles, perhaps Doctors and Lawyers, are working insane hours and have more things or monetary worth, but less time to enjoy those things.
How much money do you make per year?
How much do you spend per year?
Do you own your own home?
I would say it only takes about 30K of spending to be in the middle class. I make about 125K, spend around 30K and consider myself solidly middle class. It really doesnt take all that much.
If you subtract out the rent my monthly expenses are only about 1500-1700. So really 20K is all I need. Honestly there isn't much more I want to spend money on.
It's always entertaining for me to read the threads about how you need "$X" to be middle class or "$X" to survive. About 1% of the people in the area I live make over 100K a year so for me framing that as middle class requires some mental callisthenics. And a laundry list of stuff you need to own to be middle class is just ridiculous, a lifestyle defined by stuff doesn't seem like much of a life.
-yarddawg - highly educated - moderately paid - debt free - self employed - master of my own destiny - don't really give a damn what "class" other people think I belong to
That isn't middle class. Advertising has created a unreasonable expectation for what constitutes "the good life" in this country to keep the rank and file working harder, loading up on debt and reaching ever upwards in order to increase profit margains. It's a ploy.... a *conspiracy* if you like.
If you go to just about any other country and compare their class dynamics, you'll see the average American making 30-40K a year, living in a 3 bedroom suburban house or basic condo, driving a 5+ year old car and playing with last year's electronics would rank very high on wealth scale, if we lived over there.
I'm totally with you on all aspects of this post. I've been on one brief trip to Europe and I've to South America 4 times. It seems to me middle class Europeans have more economic security and better infrastructure, but they live in smaller houses, drive smaller cars, and pay taxes through the nose for that security. In South America, the middle class has a much lower standard of living and less economic security than Americans do, although they make up for this with strong family networks and are less dependent on the money system in general.
Here in the midwest we make almost 200k between myself and my husband. Believe me it doesnt g that far.
I live in a nice house 2200 sf in nice neighborhood of executive homes, but not that nice.
Dont really care about the latest gadget. I use an old blackberry. Computers are few years old. I upgrade when they dont work not until.
Vacations yeah spend probably 20K a year, but traveling is what we like to do so we do it. New cars well they are paid for. 2 are 2008s and 1 in a 2011. They arent really that luxurious. Dodge truck, toyota, and one mercedes convertible. Dont plan to get anymore new ones until we really need to or our needs change.
Cost of living is HIGH. Taxes, property taxes are thru the roof, utilities thru the roof, etc. We make good money have savings, etc but it takes all the money just to live...before when I was single in the late 90s i could barely live on what I made and that was 32k a year...i dont know how people do it...being poor really sucks, we could save more but you only live once and you might as well enjoy life. but no i dont consider myself much above middle class. there is always someone with nicer clothes, better house, car , etc. you need to be content with what you have and grateful. which i am. i know what its like on the other side and i am truly blessed.
I can only really speak for myself though and how 'muddied' the class distinctions are, and how, through self-deception or not, true both middle an working class can be.
For all intents and purposes I'm working/middle class. I have a degree from a state school in Philosophy, grew up in a economically lower-middle class neighborhood (next to a refinery) and work a mixed profession whereby I perform both technical work and light manual labor.
That resonates with me as well. I too grew up in a not so great area. We lived in the sticks. Most people lived in trailers around us. We were considered "upscale" because we lived in an actual house. My Dad was out of work every other year and Mom was a teacher. I never thought of ourselves as lower middle class until I moved to the Northeast. I think in major metros the stark differences between classes is more readily apparent. It costs a lot more to live in those places and there are people who are extremely poor as well as some who are phenomenally rich.
I now live in California and that distinction becomes even more clear. I worked for years in warehouses, restaurants and hardware stores making minimum wage. Throughout that entire time I always saved money. I had considerable amount saved after 3 years making $10 an hour at a warehouse. That came from very careful planning and making perhaps less than stellar housing arrangements- like renting a house with 7 other people. I have since moved up the ladder and make a somewhat upper level income. After having spent years making zilch for money I fully appreciate what I make now and know that there are many people working every bit as hard or harder than I am making far less. I used to be one of them. They still have my respect.
I still live just about like I did before I started making good money. I'm still driving the same truck I bought in high school. Its almost 17 years old with 255,000 miles. I replaced the clutch myself last year. We don't buy new furniture. Food is bought in bulk. All those things add up.
Someday we'll buy a house. It won't be in California because its too costly. That means what we save now will likely be what we'll mostly have to make due with elsewhere as there are less jobs in my field elsewhere in other states. I would have no problem going back to working in lower income jobs- especially if we didn't have a mortgage. The key is to avoid having debt that requires a high paying job in the first place. I'll be honest- the lower income jobs I had were in some ways more enjoyable. I feel like I had many close friends at some of those places. We still hang out sometimes. We used to go to each other's houses for dinner. There was a sense of purpose.
I could personally care less about class distinction. Not everyone who is rich is happy. Not everyone who is poor is sad. Human nature is the same regardless of wealth.
Statistics that define what? The government isn't in the business of sociology, they collect raw data and report it.
That is far too subjective to be of any real use....
With the exception of the vacations I don't think this is extravagant, buying a new car (or leasing one) every 3~5 years isn't a big deal. McMansions are just large cheaply built homes on small lots, you can buy a McMansion in numerous areas for $200~$300k.
stats the define middle class. as i said, they aren't perfect, since they cannot account for COL in different parts of the country, but for the basis of discussion, i think that's where most people are working from.
i think it's pretty easy for people to come up with "needs" vs "wants", so i don't think it's as subjective as it appears to be.
i think buying a new car or leasing one every 3-5 years is not necessarily a big deal, but it isn't something i'd consider normal for a majority of the "middle class". it's something one would see more in upper-middle class. and that seems to be the prevailing opinion on here.
mcmansions are large homes on small lots. just because they were cheaply built doesn't mean they are cheap. i'd say in many/most places in america, $200-$300k is on the higher end of what a middle class family would be spending. in NJ though, that's the starting point. so again, it's all perspective depending on what part of the country we are in. you'd never get a mcmansion in NJ for $300k. but in my parents' area, $300k is definitely on the higher end of middle class families for a home purchase price.
How much money do you make per year?
How much do you spend per year?
Do you own your own home?
I would say it only takes about 30K of spending to be in the middle class. I make about 125K, spend around 30K and consider myself solidly middle class. It really doesnt take all that much.
If you subtract out the rent my monthly expenses are only about 1500-1700. So really 20K is all I need. Honestly there isn't much more I want to spend money on.
My wife and I make about 75k+
We spend about 60%+ of that. Rest is savings/retirement and taxes.
Here in the midwest we make almost 200k between myself and my husband. Believe me it doesnt g that far.
I live in a nice house 2200 sf in nice neighborhood of executive homes, but not that nice.
Dont really care about the latest gadget. I use an old blackberry. Computers are few years old. I upgrade when they dont work not until.
Vacations yeah spend probably 20K a year, but traveling is what we like to do so we do it. New cars well they are paid for. 2 are 2008s and 1 in a 2011. They arent really that luxurious. Dodge truck, toyota, and one mercedes convertible. Dont plan to get anymore new ones until we really need to or our needs change.
Cost of living is HIGH. Taxes, property taxes are thru the roof, utilities thru the roof, etc. We make good money have savings, etc but it takes all the money just to live...before when I was single in the late 90s i could barely live on what I made and that was 32k a year...i dont know how people do it...being poor really sucks, we could save more but you only live once and you might as well enjoy life. but no i dont consider myself much above middle class. there is always someone with nicer clothes, better house, car , etc. you need to be content with what you have and grateful. which i am. i know what its like on the other side and i am truly blessed.
i'm curious...how high are your property taxes?
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We make money but i dont think we are rich
