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First, you get about a third of the necessary info. Then a few people post some pretty thoughtful posts.
Then the OP adds in additional facts and discounts the original responses.
Then more responses.
Then more facts and more discounts.
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How much do they want to spend?
In this day and age, it seems that most people want to spend as much as they can afford based on their CURRENT income, which may or may not be sustainable in a poor economy.
I would stop worrying about fitting in with your neighbors and just do what it right for you and your family. Look for friends based on your hobbies and interests rather than the guy next door. Since your income and jobs (and probably your hobbies) are so different than most of your neighbors you should consider that the main obstacle. It probably never even gets to the fact that one of you is from Europe. Example: Even if you and your neighbor both liked to work on classic cars, he is probably going in debt to work on his or working with limited on funds whereas you can just buy one already restored or could spare no expense to do what you wanted. If you flaunt that kind of attitude, you will never fit in. If on the other hand, you are easy going and just like working on classic cars, you may do just fine, unless he's some resentful redneck.
Look at the mortgage loan calculators. If you have 90K to put down and want to make a 20% down payment you can buy a $450,000 house. At 3.25% over 30 years that's only $1567/mo and over 15 years that's only $2,530 (excluding property taxes and insurance). Even the 15 year is less than 30% of your take home pay.
But it sounds like you were thinking if you bought a more expensive house you may end up living among people where you are more likely to fit in. I would caution against that. You may end up next to some really snobbish people who are barely getting by in that expensive house and are financed up to their eyeballs. You may end up with some nice neighbors. Just like where you live now, you could have ended up with someone similar to you living next door. Unless you're entertaining people at your house all the time fork work, you really don't need a more expensive house. I think you're better off finding your sense of community with people who have similar interests and hobbies wherever they may live.
Basically I think you're looking for happiness and community acceptance in the wrong places. Talk to a real estate agent and see if they can point you to some areas of Atlanta that you may like. When they ask the price range, tell them your income and ask them what most people are buying. Also talk to a banker and see what they say as to what you qualify for. Or just use the mortgage calculators online. I think you'll see homes in the $400K range are conservative for your income and what you can put down.
I would stop worrying about fitting in with your neighbors and just do what it right for you and your family. Look for friends based on your hobbies and interests rather than the guy next door. Since your income and jobs (and probably your hobbies) are so different than most of your neighbors you should consider that the main obstacle. It probably never even gets to the fact that one of you is from Europe. Example: Even if you and your neighbor both liked to work on classic cars, he is probably going in debt to work on his or working with limited on funds whereas you can just buy one already restored or could spare no expense to do what you wanted. If you flaunt that kind of attitude, you will never fit in. If on the other hand, you are easy going and just like working on classic cars, you may do just fine, unless he's some resentful redneck.
Look at the mortgage loan calculators. If you have 90K to put down and want to make a 20% down payment you can buy a $450,000 house. At 3.25% over 30 years that's only $1567/mo and over 15 years that's only $2,530 (excluding property taxes and insurance). Even the 15 year is less than 30% of your take home pay.
But it sounds like you were thinking if you bought a more expensive house you may end up living among people where you are more likely to fit in. I would caution against that. You may end up next to some really snobbish people who are also up to their eyeballs in debt because they are barely getting by in that expensive house and are financed up to their eyeballs. You may end up with some nice neighbors. Just like where you live now, you could have ended up with someone similar to you living next door. Unless you're entertaining people at your house all the time, you really don't need a more expensive house. I think you're better off finding your sense of community with people who have similar interests and hobbies wherever they may live.
Basically I think you're looking for happiness and community acceptance in the wrong places. Talk to a real estate agent and see if they can point you to some areas of Atlanta that you may like. When they ask the price range, tell them your income and ask them what most people are buying. Also talk to a banker and see what they say as to what you qualify for. Or just use the mortgage calculators online. I think you'll see homes in the $400K range are conservative for your income and what you can put down.
OK, need to elaborate here and there.
Not for a second would I care to "fit in" with my next door neighbors if I did not have kids. I have friends in the Atlanta area with whom we visit as often as we get a chance and I have a sister to whom I am insanely close (she is calling by the way, need to run).
Continuing...
I do not need acceptance in the community for myself, personally. However, when it comes to kids, it is a completely different story, one that I cannot ignore.
I DO need my kids to feel that they are growing up in a neighborhood where we are not outsiders, where they CAN make some friends, and where parents are not THAT different from their own parents. Driving to play-dates constantly is not an option. Kids want to step out and play with the kids around - this is the easiest thing for them, instead of being forever dependent on their parents to take them to their like-minded friend 10 neighborhoods away. They look outside the window, they see things, they see attitudes, etc.
Kids play quite a bit in this neighborhood, probably because it is a bit more "lower-end" compared to what's in the area. (I have noticed that higher-end neighborhoods are typically much more quiet).
Beyond the overall gut feeling that neither ourselves nor our kids truly fit in here, I already had an episode that was downright upsetting to me and further reinforced the feeling that we should be elsewhere. Don't know where but elsewhere.
Neighbors across the street are located virtually 7 feet away from our house. When they moved in, I went across the street, reached out, welcomed them with cookies, been the nicest and warmest anyone can imagine.
I also invited their son to come play with mine whenever he wants.
The kid even came into our house and yard and I was as welcoming and friendly as it gets.
Overall, the family scarcely managed to sketch a "thanks for the cookies" and never spoke to us again. They barely greet us when we drive by or at the bus station.
Fair enough - don't need to be "babied".
They recently had an event for their son where several children on the street were invited - but not ours.
On this occasion, the family brought some kind of exotic animal that was exciting to look at for the children. My kids who were in the yard saw it too and were so impressed they couldn't help go on the edge of our lawn and just look from there. They were dying to take a look at that animal too - given all this was going on in front of the neighbor's house, on their driveway - just a few feet away from our own lawn.
The mother saw my kids standing at the edge of our lawn, the other kids in the neighborhood saw them too, but it crossed no one's mind that it might be the polite thing to do to at least ask the kids who were trying to catch a glimpse of their darn animal to come nearer and just take a look too.
I didn't expect them to invite my kids to join the party since it never occurred to them to invite them in the first place (or they were overlooked on purpose); but when you actually see the children looking from a few feet distance, you should at least have the decency to ask them to take a look - especially when their mother went out of her way to welcome you in the neighborhood and all the jazz.
I just found the gesture downright boorish, unpolished and just plain poor taste. In the world I am coming from, this gesture would have been severely judged - and I mean SEVERELY.
I am just getting signals that my kids might end up feeling excluded/out of place in this neighborhood - and I really don't need to have to explain to them every step of the way, until their grow up, why some people do certain things or behave in certain ways and why they are so different from the way we do things.
I really do believe that your immediate environment matters a lot during your formative years and I am willing to look for the right one for my kids.
I am 100% aware that going to a "fancier" neighborhood (as in higher education/higher income) is in no way guarantee of a healthy, friendly, more open-minded and more gracious environment; but on average, with a bit of luck, it MIGHT make a difference. On that side you risk running into those completely enamored with their supposed "success" in life (the snobs, yes) and we are not exactly looking for such elements either.
But then, where the heck does one go to find some decent, friendly, down-to-Earth and yes, also educated families?
Since you mentioned our "attitude" or the possibility that I may have "offended" any neighbors with visible signs indicating our ability to EASILY afford their neighborhood, this is excluded.
There is nothing that they see that would indicate such a thing, including the cars we drive - in which they wouldn't be caught dead (at least mine - which is a 100,000 miles beater); or the very few toys my children have, a whole lots less than what you see in the neighborhood.
So now - it is not us. We have been nothing but friendly, warm and modest.
It is them - and it's as simple as that.
Whether because of our educational background, mannerism, accent or my immigrant status (though I am a naturalized US citizen), they simply don't feel comfortable around us, which in turn makes us feel uncomfortable around them.
I am not blaming them because I understand, deep down. We are all tribal creatures and we all want to be around people that we feel we can relate to and identify with; and we are not IT for them.
...which leaves us pondering over whether we should buy into such neighborhoods no matter how affordable they are to us.
If you don't think your kids are in a good environment I would look elsewhere, using the previously suggested housing costs. Personally I find it confusing as to why your kids just didn't go over to the neighbors driveway and look close up. Its not like they knocked on the door to a party in the backyard knowing they weren't invited. This happened out in front, in public view. If the parents scold them for coming uninvited, they're crazy.
Go 600K w/a 30 yr mtg or 450K w/a 15 yr. (note both fixed rate)
Historically low rates will give you more buying power
Funny thing - but with the parameters mentioned above, I, for one, would find 450,000 financially scary (600,000 - sheer insanity).
All this financial commitment without the slightest guarantee that we would find what we are looking for socially in the 450,000 neighborhood (again, this is for the sake of our kids and not for us making friends in the neighborhood; we already have our own friends - but my kids don't and they can't just hop in a car and drive to see their friends whenever they want, like we do).
As mentioned before, strictly materially speaking, I am perfectly happy with the house we are renting now. I grew up with very little, materially speaking (but with quite a lot, educationally speaking), so I do not need "nice things". What I have now is already a whole lot nicer than I ever had growing up.
I am often shocked at the material expectations of your average American.
If you don't think your kids are in a good environment I would look elsewhere, using the previously suggested housing costs. Personally I find it confusing as to why your kids just didn't go over to the neighbors driveway and look close up. Its not like they knocked on the door to a party in the backyard knowing they weren't invited. This happened out in front, in public view. If the parents scold them for coming uninvited, they're crazy.
I urged my children to do just that - take a few steps, go there and just take a look. But he said "mom, no - I wasn't invited".
And truth is - my son was 100% right. He wasn't invited and he was clearly NOT welcome given the neighbor clearly SAW them sitting there timidly, wanting to take a look - and she completely and purposely ignored them.
I saw it with my own eyes, from the house; the whole scenario was ridiculous and probably had a lot to do with the poor upbringing and overall lack of manners of these adults.
If that is not it (though nothing in their general behavior indicates otherwise), then my immigrant status (as in "foreigner/alien/weirdo/not like us") might have been an issue. I don't know.
Otherwise, I can't explain why all the kids on the street were invited but not ours; and even when they were SEEN desperately trying to take a look from their own law, they CONTINUED to be ignored.
Some kids or adults may have called for your kids to come over. But at the same time, I think your kids may be perceived as weird for not just going over themselves. I'm not in that neighborhood so I don't know the personalities. However, unless these people are white trash or mean rednecks, I find it less likely that your family would be excluded because you are a foreigner than some other reason. Perhaps your children come across as standoffish or snooty because their parents are highly educated compared to the others. If they've ever said "we don't play video games" or things like that, they're just going to seem different to most. I'm not trying to say your kids are at fault, but just trying to say I don't have enough information to know what the issue is. It sounds like you are uncomfortable with such a high dollar house even though your income and expenses clearly show that you are able to comfortably afford one. Perhaps rent in a different neighborhood before you buy. With today's low interest rates and home prices, it makes sense to buy if you can as long as you don't need to sell right away.
If you plug your numbers into a mortgage calculator it comes out with an $800,000 home, which I think would be crazy to do. I wouldn't be comfortable going above the 2.5 x income that someone mentioned earlier.
I would caution you about upgrading the neighborhood too much. I understand that you feel you are not fitting in with the neighbors and want to upgrade. Just be aware if you upgrade too much, your new neighbors will have much more expensive lifestyles and your expenses will go up accordingly if you want to join their activities. The more expensive the neighborhood the more expensive it is to fit in. My sister did this when she moved into a fancy gated community. She made friends with all the neighbor wives and started wanting to shop at the same stores and take expensive trips with them out of town.
Some kids or adults may have called for your kids to come over.
No, they didn't. I was there, discreetly watching every move from the window.
Quote:
Originally Posted by md21722
But at the same time, I think your kids may be perceived as weird for not just going over themselves. I'm not in that neighborhood so I don't know the personalities. However, unless these people are white trash or mean rednecks, I find it less likely that your family would be excluded because you are a foreigner than some other reason. Perhaps your children come across as standoffish or snooty because their parents are highly educated compared to the others. If they've ever said "we don't play video games" or things like that, they're just going to seem different to most. I'm not trying to say your kids are at fault, but just trying to say I don't have enough information to know what the issue is. It sounds like you are uncomfortable with such a high dollar house even though your income and expenses clearly show that you are able to comfortably afford one. Perhaps rent in a different neighborhood before you buy. With today's low interest rates and home prices, it makes sense to buy if you can as long as you don't need to sell right away.
I understand what you are saying as perceptions form on both sides. However, "weird for not going there by themselves"?
I don't think so. Everyone who was there had been specifically INVITED at the BDay party. Nobody just "dropped by".
In the scenario I described (and which is 100% the way I described it - you can take my word for it or not), I would never consider the ball to be in the kids' court.
It was in that mother's court and she chose to do absolutely nothing with it.
And no, my children never say "we don't play video games" or other similar things because they DO like to play them. Except that they usually play them at other people's houses, when they get a chance.
It is true that we don't have them in the house ourselves - but I never forbid them from playing when they go elsewhere. For them, such aspects are simply not an issue. They don't ask for them - but they are glad to play when they see one here and there. For example, they've seen the WII, they played, they liked it, but not so much as to ask for one. Then why buy one if they are not "Jonesing" for it?
Of course, one day this may change and we might even buy one when time comes; but I certainly would not mind being in a neighborhood where other parents have books all over the place instead of video games, so we would not end up looking so weird in our own kids' eyes one day.
But for now...believe me, the "issue" of video games or other popular things like that is NOT an actual issue. Besides, kids around here seem to be more into electric scooters, sports/balls and the like; all perfectly fine.
My son is 6, my daughter is three - they are both normal kids, attracted to "sparkly" kid stuff and I can assure you they don't come across as "snooty".
Generally speaking, what bothers me is the suggestion that in such a neighborhood, I am the one who should be on the "defensive" and "apologetic" for my possible "elitist crimes" such as cultivating books instead of video games, saying Hello and Good Bye at the bus station, being gracious enough to welcome newcomers with cookies, or not peppering my speech with "...and I was like" every 2 seconds.
We're looking for a neighborhood where such "crimes" would be forgiven and would not make us "weird suspects". Also, where going to pick up my son at the bus stop would not give me such an unpleasant gut feeling of "out-of-place-ness" every time I show up.
And can this neighborhood not cost an arm and a leg too?
It sounds like a tall order, I know.
Funny thing is that the family who sold the house to the guys across the street were the only ones we felt a real connection with.
Great people all around. But with our luck, they packed up and moved after only a few years in this neighborhood. Interestingly enough, as they did not exactly look like a great fit for the neighborhood either.
Last edited by syracusa; 04-01-2012 at 10:28 PM..
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