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Philadelphia was known for high quality products, they were never ever to compete on price with the likes of Grand Rapids in furniture (and later carolina) but they didn't need to. Philadelphia as a city of small concerns and the world changed against them in favor of large corporations with obedient, rather than innovative workforces (hence the rise of unions). Philadelphia was basically what the likes of jane jacobs argued is good for cities. the question is, can it get it back and will it return to where it was most concentrated (north philly/kensington)? back then center city was for the blue bloods, the opposite of the innovators, the place who hired you not based on talent but familial lineage.
Exactly, which is why the majority of the large companies left are not the innovative ones but the ones that have the most ruthless business tactics. How many people know that Hershey's bought up Luden's of Reading? That's just one example out of many.
No, I don't think it will ever be possible again. Things are made differently now, and many "innovators" have no loyalty whatsoever. Back then, the innovators all wanted to be a part of Philadelphia Society. Once that was made possible, and once Philadelphia Society fled the city, what reason was there to be here when you could be in "innovative" places like New York or California? Plus, so many people in this country grow up in the same "Everywhere USA" places, so why would they have loyalty to anywhere? It of course doesn't help that people don't care anywhere near as much about real quality anymore, and especially not about refinement and tastefulness.
You also have to understand that those innovations were a result of many different factors. For one, back then Philadelphia and the metro was the only place people could get many European things in the US. For example: ice cream. It was the center of many things that have since moved on to cities like New York and elsewhere. To add onto that, many of the innovations that came out of Philadelphia and the metro were more like "gifts' to the rest of the country and the world. Once they were out there, they would never be "just the Philadelphia metro's" again. Look at the example of different cultures and different types of food. People have no problem whatsoever opening some exotic restaurant with food that isn't from their own culture, and taking credit for it as a chef. Music is another great example. The best the metro can ever hope for is to finally get credit for the many contributions that have either been discounted or swept under the rug.
Many of those innovations were also just the most important step in a process, and have been refined since. The great ideas came out of the metro, but the finished, refined product would come later on in many cases, by somebody in some other place who then took credit for the whole thing. Either that or the company got bought by a more bloated one who would then most likely move it and make it a "division" of the larger corporation.
Often these ideas were not made by rich men but discriminated-against European immigrants. They didn't have the "Old Money" financial staying power that the blue-bloods did.
Kensington and North Philly were just the biggest pieces of land directly outside of the city is all. That's why they became centers of industry.
they didnt live here because they wanted to be part of philadelphia society...many if them wanted to avoid it and they established their own institutions in north philly. they were here because philadelphia was full of innovation clusters just as ny was. ny is expensive and has its own baggage. philadelphia is big but not crammed like nyc. the old neighborhoods are a great setting for interaction and interaction leads to innovation. in philly most innovators leave the city as soon as they're selling anything. ny's most innovative neighborhoods are also often the most philadelphia like. it isnt the skyscrapers of manhattan.
incidentally, Philadelphia is still the largest cacao port in the US. Hershey stole the kiss from lititz based (formerly Philadelphia based) Wilbur Co's chocolate buds (which you can still buy at the reading terminal or shane's in old city)
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Like an ice-cream cone in August, 240 jobs and 129 years of history melted away yesterday.
In a six-minute meeting with stunned employees, company officials announced that the Breyers ice-cream factory in West Philadelphia would close by the end of October. America's top-selling ice cream no longer will be made in the city where the company was founded.
Though a corporate spokesman described the decision as "tentative," union leaders said company officials had told them that the closure was definite - and non-negotiable...Good Humor-Breyers is now owned by Unilever, a worldwide conglomerate based in the Netherlands that posted about $2.4 billion in profits last year. The West Philadelphia facility will be the third Breyers plant closed by Unilever since it bought the company two years ago, including one in Los Angeles that is scheduled to close by the end of the year. Good Humor-Breyers operates seven other factories around the nation...he closing would make Breyers ice cream the latest in a series of distinctly Philadelphia products that have vanished or are no longer made here. Whitman's Chocolates and After Six formalwear were two other recent casualties.
both breyer's and whitman's have seen a series of quality downgrades (though I'm not old enough to remember if it happened under unilever or kraft) and are no longer not affiliated with Philadelphia but also not affiliated with quality.
16 years later
Quote:
The Breyers plant in Framingham has stopped making ice cream, leaving 174 employees out of work. About 30 of those employees will stay on until the facility officially closes at the end of May. Parent company Unilever, which also makes Ben & Jerry’s, Slim-Fast, and Q-Tips, said two years ago that it was shutting down the 47-year-old plant to save money. Most of the production will be transferred to a facility in Covington, Tenn.
http://www.boston.com/yourtown/frami...mingham_plant/
a lot of it is the new world that favors capital (money raising, etc which makes it cheaper to buy companies than to build businesses) and big labor. the latter is being undone but there's little sign of the former being undone. low interest rates and excess liquidity puts cheap money in the hands of financiers. just today heinz was sold to financiers, not producers.
they didnt live here because they wanted to be part of philadelphia society...many if them wanted to avoid it and they established their own institutions in north philly. they were here because philadelphia was full of innovation clusters just as ny was. ny is expensive and has its own baggage. philadelphia is big but not crammed like nyc. the old neighborhoods are a great setting for interaction and interaction leads to innovation. in philly most innovators leave the city as soon as they're selling anything. ny's most innovative neighborhoods are also often the most philadelphia like. it isnt the skyscrapers of manhattan.
incidentally, Philadelphia is still the largest cacao port in the US. Hershey stole the kiss from lititz based (formerly Philadelphia based) Wilbur Co's chocolate buds (which you can still buy at the reading terminal or shane's in old city)
both breyer's and whitman's have seen a series of quality downgrades (though I'm not old enough to remember if it happened under unilever or kraft) and are no longer not affiliated with Philadelphia but also not affiliated with quality.
16 years later
Production ends at Breyers’ Framingham plant - The Boston Globe
a lot of it is the new world that favors capital (money raising, etc which makes it cheaper to buy companies than to build businesses) and big labor. the latter is being undone but there's little sign of the former being undone. low interest rates and excess liquidity puts cheap money in the hands of financiers. just today heinz was sold to financiers, not producers.
Heinz was sold? What a joke.
I'm talking about the innovations that made the city great, not the recent ones. By the way, Philadelphia was very much packed. There were over 60,000 people per square mile in Center City in 1850, and roughly 25,000 per square mile in Spring Garden. Lord only knows what the numbers were like in North Philly and Kensington, not to mention how much more packed those sections and Center City must've been in later decades. Anyway, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying here. I'm talking about when Philadelphia was the Workshop of the World, and the center of industry and innovation.
It has nothing to do with "old" neighborhoods. The neighborhoods were new or nonexistent in parts then. They came to Philadelphia or the metro from other places and other countries for work and to raise their families or to have a chance at life. Very few innovators in the city's history weren't people who were trying to "come up" or who were in discriminated classes. They didn't want to not be a part of Philadelphia Society. They were excluded based on nothing but the fact that they weren't a certain heritage. That is why they formed their own societies and institutions. When Philadelphia was the center of industry and innovation, New York was not "New York". New York was only "New York" when it came to newer industries like show business, and when it came to money (thanks to Alexander Hamilton). Many of those now expensive neighborhoods in New York were either full of immigrants or full of the more-established lower-classes or both. Philadelphia didn't have "clusters" of innovation. There was no such thing back then. Philadelphia had Old World ties and industries, as well as many new, innovative immigrants who came simply to get work and have a chance. They couldn't afford to be so picky as to choose based on who had "innovation clusters" or not. Like I said, factors just came together the way that they did.
You can't apply today's situation to a completely different time.
I'm talking about the innovations that made the city great, not the recent ones. By the way, Philadelphia was very much packed. There were over 60,000 people per square mile in Center City in 1850, and roughly 25,000 per square mile in Spring Garden. Lord only knows what the numbers were like in North Philly and Kensington, not to mention how much more packed those sections and Center City must've been in later decades. Anyway, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying here. I'm talking about when Philadelphia was the Workshop of the World, and the center of industry and innovation.
I was referring today (about being packed). what's interesting is much of what is today considered SG was undeveloped at that time.
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Originally Posted by UDResident
It has nothing to do with "old" neighborhoods.
today they are old, then they were not... I don't think we're disagreeing. my point is that the physical characteristics of those Philadelphia neighorhoods were actually conducive to innovation...they were dense clusters of people and businesses, often in similar industries, where ideas were exchanged in clubs, taverns, etc. ven today it's places like that in manhattan and brooklyn that are the source of ideas in nyc, not the expensive highrises of midtown or the upper west side. NY was still a very busy place, even then. different, but busy and innovative.
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Originally Posted by UDResident
... There was no such thing back then.
this is where you are wrong, they did, they just didn't call them that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UDResident
Philadelphia had Old World ties and industries, as well as many new, innovative immigrants who came simply to get work and have a chance. They couldn't afford to be so picky as to choose based on who had "innovation clusters" or not. Like I said, factors just came together the way that they did. You can't apply today's situation to a completely different time.
actually many did choose Philadelphia because it had innovation clusters. they didn't see it that way but those clusters were the source of Philadelphia's exploding wealth and thus the attraction for immigrants coming to make a better life.Philadelphia was the first city to start replacing European goods competing not just on rpice but also on quality. today is a different time no doubt, but that doesn't necessarily mean the city can't recapture some of what made it great. at it's worst, Philadelphia came to be almost the polar opposite, resistant to change, penalizing entrepreneurs for being located in the city. it isn't because immigrants stopped coming, immigrants stopped coming because the city ceased to offer any economic opportunity.
Odd. Sad to see yet another historic PA company come into the hands of Wall Street types.
Either way, you're really oversimplifying a very complex issue, and you're trying to apply many of today's factors to back then when it just isn't accurate. It was a completely different time. Philadelphia and its metro was the first major step in the transition of the global economy from European domination to US domination. You pointed this out yourself by mentioning how Philadelphia was the first place that could compete with Europe when it came to not just price but quality. That wasn't about "innovation" but about connections to the Old World and its families and companies and culture. Many of the innovations in industry were a result of contemporary-minded younger people and immigrants finding work in an established trade and having an idea that they then put into action.
Philadelphia is very well priced and it is all organic, unlike DC and NYC or even Boston to an extent (being the Capital of the State and benefiting from the College bubble). It is very representative of the market here. It is my opinion however that Boston, NYC and DC (especially) are highly inflated and will come back down to reality over the next decade. The financial free for all in NYC has been slowly dying since 2007, the defense contractor/Government bubble free for all in DC will not last much longer. I could see Philadelphia and Boston being the premiere East Coast cities in the decades to come, with DC and NYC taking a backseat to real honest economic growth.
I know I would like to own as many properties in Philly as I can get my hands on as I truly believe Philadelphia and Boston/NYC/DC will meet in the middle in terms of cost of living and home values over the next decade.
You can spew whatever you want but NYC and D.C. will always be on a greater scale then Philly. NYC competes on a global scale with Hong Kong, London, Paris, Rome etc. Philly still competes with National cities in America like Boston and Atlanta. Wall Street is the money capital in America and the World, philly has nothing close to that, infact philly could never match the wealth and economic power of NYC. NYC will always be America's premier city. Even in the 70's and 80's when NYC was the most dangerous city in America with the worst looking ghettos in American history, it still was the premeir city of America, and D.C. is the capital with the political scene their philly could never match that. Mayor Nutter of Philly, compared to Mayor Bloomberg of NYC, or the president of the U.S. Obama in D.C. Philly yeah right!!!
No bad historic Pa company didn't know what they are doing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UDResident
Odd. Sad to see yet another historic PA company come into the hands of Wall Street types.
Either way, you're really oversimplifying a very complex issue, and you're trying to apply many of today's factors to back then when it just isn't accurate. It was a completely different time. Philadelphia and its metro was the first major step in the transition of the global economy from European domination to US domination. You pointed this out yourself by mentioning how Philadelphia was the first place that could compete with Europe when it came to not just price but quality. That wasn't about "innovation" but about connections to the Old World and its families and companies and culture. Many of the innovations in industry were a result of contemporary-minded younger people and immigrants finding work in an established trade and having an idea that they then put into action.
Nothing could tell the story of the immigrant coming to America and working hard and making it big better then NYC. Wall Street makes money bottom line, if your historic PA company dosen't know how to generate revenue. Wall Street can help, Philly's a broke city overall to bad you guys don't know how to make money. Infact Philly's average income per house hold is pretty low compared to NYC. I suggest a trip to Wall Street the Money Capital of the World and they'll show you slower philly people how to make money. I'll be eating at a 5 star New York steakhouse in Midtown tommorow (best steak in the world), why because I got money and so does NYC.
You can spew whatever you want but NYC and D.C. will always be on a greater scale then Philly. NYC competes on a global scale with Hong Kong, London, Paris, Rome etc. Philly still competes with National cities in America like Boston and Atlanta. Wall Street is the money capital in America and the World, philly has nothing close to that, infact philly could never match the wealth and economic power of NYC. NYC will always be America's premier city. Even in the 70's and 80's when NYC was the most dangerous city in America with the worst looking ghettos in American history, it still was the premeir city of America, and D.C. is the capital with the political scene their philly could never match that. Mayor Nutter of Philly, compared to Mayor Bloomberg of NYC, or the president of the U.S. Obama in D.C. Philly yeah right!!!
Philly was indeed the political capitol of the US so it has "matched that." and where does this other garbage come from? worst looking ghettoes in american history? you may know how to make money, which I assume is related to bribing DC folks for the rights to rob innocent people, but you certainly don't know your history. you know what happened to rome in the end right?
Last edited by toobusytoday; 08-15-2013 at 05:49 PM..
Reason: Removed insult
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Philly will never catch NYC
