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Why should someone with a Section 8 voucher be allowed to live in Radnor? That is one of the most elite townships in the nation. Most middle class families making 100k a year could barely afford to live there, so why should someone be given a voucher for it.
A lot of you will disagree with me but it has been proven that allowing large swaths of housing to be reserved as Section 8 results in the destruction of a neighborhood. This is not the same as affordable housing (those have income and rent restrictions), Section 8 is more often than not people who do not work and will bring nothing to the neighborhood.
The cycle will never change, wealthier white people will simply pick up and move again. Instead of working about vouchers, money should be reinvested into these rundown communities to make them more desirable places for low income people to live.
I agree with you almost entirely on your post. The only thing that I disagree with is that "wealthier white people" will continue to leave; I think that a wealthier person of any race would pick up and leave.
Section 8 is literally the detriment of an area. You can see a classic example of what Section 8 accomplishes when you drive through Chester. Southwest Philly below the Media/Elwyn Line (especially along Woodland Avenue) is another example.
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Originally Posted by AbdiKony
Interesting conversation here. What do you think is the future of Delco.
As someone who was born in Delco, spent most of his years in Delco, and has most of his family in Delco, I see it really going downhill in the near future. This is especially true for the towns close to the Philadelphia border. I hope that this won't come to fruition, but it seems to be true from what I have been hearing and witnessing over the years.
Interesting conversation here. What do you think is the future of Delco.
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Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan2013
As someone who was born in Delco, spent most of his years in Delco, and has most of his family in Delco, I see it really going downhill in the near future. This is especially true for the towns close to the Philadelphia border. I hope that this won't come to fruition, but it seems to be true from what I have been hearing and witnessing over the years.
In response to both... I refer to "Delco" as the entirety of Delaware County.
In simple terms, the rich areas will continue to get richer, and the poor areas poorer. The in-between is the questionable part.
If you look at Glen Mills, Garnet Valley, Chadds Ford, etc those areas are booming, and combined with bordering townships in Chester County, they are giving the Main Line a run for their money.
Then you have Swarthmore, Media, Upper Providence, Middletown, Edgemont, Newtown Square, Radnor etc... those are very established communities that seem to be on the up, especially Media borough and Newtown Square with all of the luxury housing going up.
Areas of question are the towns that are in-between the poor and rich. I think some will hold out and others will slowly decay.
But in summary I do not see Delaware County going downhill whatsoever. There is a lot of growth and money in the county and I think a lot of people forget that because they focus on the few bad areas in the extreme southeastern portion.
PhiliesPhan2013 I am confused as to why you think??
I agree with you almost entirely on your post. The only thing that I disagree with is that "wealthier white people" will continue to leave; I think that a wealthier person of any race would pick up and leave.
Absolutely true, and I mentioned this before. Contrary to popular belief, middle class and wealthy minorities DO exist. These were families that settled in the inner burbs in the 70s and early 80s, and are largely moving out now as these towns decline. There's a racial component to all of this, but black property owners don't like seeing their property values dive and taxes spike any more than white property owners do. My own anecdotal experience doesn't have them moving out to Radnor or Chester County though, they simply leave Pennsylvania entirely and head south to VA/SC/GA/FL where middle class and wealthy black communities are more common.
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As someone who was born in Delco, spent most of his years in Delco, and has most of his family in Delco, I see it really going downhill in the near future. This is especially true for the towns close to the Philadelphia border. I hope that this won't come to fruition, but it seems to be true from what I have been hearing and witnessing over the years.
I agree with Cpomp that there is a definite divide between the "inner" burbs which are most frequently referred to as "Delco" and the western burbs separated by/bordering 476. Springfield/Haverford/Media/Radnor/Chadds Ford/Upper Providence/Nether Providence/etc are more than fine- property values are through the roof and there's a lot of new business and development.
The inner burbs on the other hand are screwed for a lot of reasons. Taxes are going up, section 8 residents from Philadelphia are moving in, anyone with money is moving out and the schools systems are in dire shape because of all of the above. Toss in the Heroin explosion running wild over the white working class and its a disaster. I'm seeing memorials for twentysomethings that "died suddenly" in that area literally once a week now on facebook, if not more frequently.
There's nothing that can be done about the influx of section 8 residents driving down property values, but divorcing school funding from property taxes as much as possible is likely the only really effective thing that can be done to slow this down. School systems and taxes are the #1 reason that homeowners end up fleeing a community for elsewhere, and all of this is related.
In response to both... I refer to "Delco" as the entirety of Delaware County.
I see what you mean. When I think of Delco, I think of it in sections (SE/Philadelphia border, SW/Delaware Border, Main Line, etc). I was born (Chester/Upland) and raised in (Chester, later Brookhaven) Southwest Delco.
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Originally Posted by cpomp
PhiliesPhan2013 I am confused as to why you think??
I do forget this from time to time. I was born and raised in both the Southwestern extremes of the county. As a kid, all I saw was Chester, Trainer, and other, similar communities. When my mom left West Philly and gained a higher paying job, she relocated us to Brookhaven. Brookhaven is a lot better than the rest of Southwest Delco. I also went to high school in Springfield at Cardinal O'Hara High School (Class of 2013, baby!).
I guess I have that mindset since I rarely drive through the better areas of Delco. Sure, I'll occasionally drive through Springfield, Media, Middletown, and Aston on occasion, but when I'm home from college running errands for my mom, I'm usually driving through the depressing parts of Delco (along MacDade Boulevard and Chester Pike). I should have formatted my question to say that Southeast Delco is poised to go downhill. Certain parts of Southwest Delco, such as Chester, are too far gone. Places like Villanova, Wayne, and Radnor are not going anywhere anytime soon! Also, let it be noted that I love Delco.
I read somewhere that Delco is the 5th richest county in PA a while ago.
Absolutely true, and I mentioned this before. Contrary to popular belief, middle class and wealthy minorities DO exist. These were families that settled in the inner burbs in the 70s and early 80s, and are largely moving out now as these towns decline. There's a racial component to all of this, but black property owners don't like seeing their property values dive and taxes spike any more than white property owners do. My own anecdotal experience doesn't have them moving out to Radnor or Chester County though, they simply leave Pennsylvania entirely and head south to VA/SC/GA/FL where middle class and wealthy black communities are more common.
Just to add:
Black midde class flight started 15 to 20 years earlier than you cite. I know because my family, and scores of their educated friends, left W. Phila, for the inner ring 'burbs like Yeadon, starting in the earlier 1950s. The city riot in 1964 caused even more of this "push out" to occur.
One of my nieces lives ,with her immediate family, in Birmingham, AL. She was born in Phila. but has spent most of her adult life in the south. I, personally, don't care for the politics and social conservative atmosphere, but it works for her and middle class black friends.
I see what you mean. When I think of Delco, I think of it in sections (SE/Philadelphia border, SW/Delaware Border, Main Line, etc). I was born (Chester/Upland) and raised in (Chester, later Brookhaven) Southwest Delco.
I do forget this from time to time. I was born and raised in both the Southwestern extremes of the county. As a kid, all I saw was Chester, Trainer, and other, similar communities. When my mom left West Philly and gained a higher paying job, she relocated us to Brookhaven. Brookhaven is a lot better than the rest of Southwest Delco. I also went to high school in Springfield at Cardinal O'Hara High School (Class of 2013, baby!).
I guess I have that mindset since I rarely drive through the better areas of Delco. Sure, I'll occasionally drive through Springfield, Media, Middletown, and Aston on occasion, but when I'm home from college running errands for my mom, I'm usually driving through the depressing parts of Delco (along MacDade Boulevard and Chester Pike). I should have formatted my question to say that Southeast Delco is poised to go downhill. Certain parts of Southwest Delco, such as Chester, are too far gone. Places like Villanova, Wayne, and Radnor are not going anywhere anytime soon! Also, let it be noted that I love Delco.
I read somewhere that Delco is the 5th richest county in PA a while ago.
I just do not like the term Delco, but I guess it more applies to the southeaster portion of the county. See when I am home I spend most of my time on the opposite side of the county so I have a totally different perspective. Brookhaven is a nice little town, but that is one the towns that may start to go down due to its close proximity to Chester aging housing and lack of land for new residential development.
Delaware County is actually the 4th richest... Chester County is no 1, Montgomery, Bucks then Delaware. The fact that Delaware County is still right behind the other 3 with the amount poverty in Chester/Upland and Darby, just shows how wealthy the rest of the county is.
There's nothing that can be done about the influx of section 8 residents driving down property values, but divorcing school funding from property taxes as much as possible is likely the only really effective thing that can be done to slow this down. School systems and taxes are the #1 reason that homeowners end up fleeing a community for elsewhere, and all of this is related.
Yes and no. There's some things to like here but some serious flaws as well.
First: I believe the major criticism here of HB/SB 76 is that while yes, it eliminates property tax for homeowners, it also gets rid of property tax for business.
This means that the revenue that should be collected from business gets shifted to income and sales tax increases picked up by residents. IIRC about 1/3 of total property tax is commercial/industrial. Uh...no. can't say I'm a fan of that one.
Second: If the text is correct, HB/SB 76 holds state funding at current levels and replaces property tax dollar for dollar. This is ALSO a problem, and I've posted about this one before. PA currently has no funding formula, but does have something called "Hold Harmless". What is this?
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Hold harmless guarantees each school district receives no fewer state education dollars than it received the previous year—regardless of changes in district enrollment. This may sound appealing in theory, but it is actually quite problematic in practice. While the policy ostensibly exists to prevent school districts from being harmed by reduced funding, it has, in fact, brought real harm and inequity to hundreds of districts across the commonwealth.
Consider that during the 2012-13 school year, state revenue per student in Pennsylvania's 20 fastest-growing districts was slightly more than $3,000. In contrast, state revenue per student among those districts with the largest decreases in enrollment was nearly $10,000. Put another way, school districts with declining enrollment received more than three times the state funding per student than growing districts.
So in short, the hold harmless provision means that districts with enrollment DECREASES receive more state aid per student than the state's fastest growing districts- money is essentially going to where it's needed the least. If anything the current state funding distribution level that relies on hold harmless needs to be scrapped entirely and reworked into something resembling a sane funding formula before anything else is done.
HB/SB 76 uses the funding level HH establishes as a baseline and follows it up with this:
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- At enactment of The Property Tax Independence Act, all districts will receive 100% funding sufficient to meet all financial obligations with a dollar-for-dollar replacement of the eliminated property tax. In the future, every district will receive identical percentage annual base funding increases that will be limited to the increase in the Pennsylvania Average Weekly Wage (AWW) or available revenue, whichever is less, effectively tying annual school budget increases to increases in economic activity.
Yeesh. no. Where to start with this- at the very least cost of living and increases thereof vary wildly across the state. You can't pay teachers in Philadelphia what you pay them in Shamokin. Certain things like the cost of fuel can end up spiking wildly throwing district costs out of whack- remember when oil was $140 a barrel? Weather events like heat waves, hurricanes, floods, and blizzards can be localized, leaving Pittsburgh devastated 3 or 4 times a year but Allentown untouched, and salt and maintenance costs are not cheap. Pensions are still very much a thing (and likely to remain so), and severe market downturns like 08 or simple negligence by elected officials may mandate increased funding to address gaps.
Making base funding increases identical across the state and tied to AWW (which would account for none of that) is a recipe for disaster, and tying additional funding to local referendum is laughable. Residents will routinely vote down tax increases on principle no matter how badly they're needed. There needs to be a better mechanism for addressing unexpected increases in costs that do not hit the districts in a uniform manner. Like it or not there needs to be SOME discretion by local school authorities.
but that's just off the top of my head. The basic principle of SB/HB 76 is good (use income and sales taxes to relieve property tax) but the implementation here is flawed.
Last edited by Burger Fan; 02-12-2016 at 02:01 PM..
I wouldn't be surprised if 10 yrs from now Philadelphia resembles european cities like Paris, in that elite and upper middle class will be concentrated in the city while the surrounding suburbs turn into tenement ghettos occupied by people who commute into the urban core for low paying jobs. I think this is a trend we will see in a lot of major US cities as rents in city centers continue to increase and centralized areas gentrify.
As far as section 8 vouchers ruining an area...meh, I think it's driven by market forces. The voucher has a cap so it allows for limited accessibility. If section 8 holders can afford to live near you then you likely don't live in such a hot area to begin with. These "working class" towns like Drexel Hill generally are filled with lower educated blue collar workers. As the middle class continues to shrink and progress in automation requires workers to be highly educated and skilled I would expect to see "forced integration" in the near future in these kinds of areas.
This type of urbanization is usually driven by developers. They would snap up the dilapidated homes in the city and build apartments. I'm yet to see that happening in North Philly or South Philly. What you have now is guys buying property and fixing them.
At the same time, the jobs would have to move to the cities. This would probably proceed the developers. As for now, home builders are concentrated in the suburbs. For now, the cities are becoming an enclave of student-debt laden millennials who have little hope of getting into the property ladder.
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Originally Posted by TimmyTightWad
I wouldn't be surprised if 10 yrs from now Philadelphia resembles european cities like Paris, in that elite and upper middle class will be concentrated in the city while the surrounding suburbs turn into tenement ghettos occupied by people who commute into the urban core for low paying jobs. I think this is a trend we will see in a lot of major US cities as rents in city centers continue to increase and centralized areas gentrify.
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