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Greetings from wild and wooly Norristown, where my neighbors on both sides have parties every weekend.
Last weekend apparently people were trying door handles of cars in the neighborhood, but they were being safe and using paper towels and wipes to touch the cars - and left the towels attached to the door handles.
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Originally Posted by moneymkt
Some people are wearing "stylish masks" which is annoying because you accepting this crazy new life. Just wear a plain mask to go to work or the market or pharmacy
How is it any skin off your nose what kind of masks other people are wearing? I made a couple out of bandanas (one says "I Pick Pottstown", LOL), and a couple more out of fabric scraps - a lovely aqua calico print - I just happened to have around the house. Should I have gone out and purchased an acceptable plain fabric - oh, wait, I think JoAnn is closed. Now whatever should I do?
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Originally Posted by Maddie104
The infection rate among younger population will increase but many of those infections will be asymptommatic or modest not requiring hospitalizations.
How do you propose ensuring that people who are asymptomatic a) are diagnosed; and b) stay home?
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The goal is herd immunity or a vaccine whichever comes first.
You keep talking about "herd immunity", but there is conflicting evidence that this exists, or if it does, for how long.
This is the wrong conclusion. It's isn't about who is affected the most; it's about who requires the most hospitalizations since the goal is not to overwhelm the healthcare system. Isolating the fewest number of people having the most impact rather than isolating everyone. Presumably those in the 65+ group includes men.
Hospitalization Rates by Age Range to Date
​Age Range
​Percent of Cases
​0-29 ​2%
30-49 5%
50-64 10%
​65-79 20%
​80+ 21%
FWIW, I am in the high risk age group with no comorbities so I would be affected as well. However, I look at the numbers dispassionately. It's not about me; it's about the cost to society of the extended close downs. I also pointed out the 50% of the deaths are from nursing homes. Closing business and schools will not impact those deaths. The focus should be on improving hygiene at nursing homes.
This will be my last comment on the subject. As they say, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink."
African Americans and Hispanics ARE at a higher risk for hospitalization. Men are also higher risk for hospitalization as well.
African Americans and Hispanics ARE at a higher risk for hospitalization. Men are also higher risk for hospitalization as well.
Right now the mass shutdowns is hurting far more AAs and Hispanics than the virus.
You can't wish the virus away. It cannot be defeated. It's not an enemy to triumph over on the battlefield and whip into obedience. IT's here. It will be addressed via herd immunity. Herd immunity is achieved when the people who are likely to die of the virus die and the survivors have the antibodies. It becomes something comparable to the regular flu (which still kills people, FYI). Even a vaccine won't save everyone, just as some people still due of the flu despite a flu shot. This is the ruthless reality of mother nature.
We do know, as data has steadily showed us despite some people's refusal to accept it, that the vast majority of people who die of the virus are certain demographics with advanced age and existing health problems. We do know the vast, vast, vast majority (more than 99%) survive the virus.
The mass shutdowns have nearly destroyed the economy, thrown 27 million Americans out of work (and many more across the world). That is a problem. How much longer can you continue to shut down and ruin the economic livelihoods of tens of millions of younger, working age Americans? If it was younger people dying of the virus, maybe there's a logic to the shutdowns. But if the people dying of the virus are mostly people who would die anyway in a matter of time due to their other advanced health problems/age (average tenure at a nursing home is, what, two years, before death), can we plausibly ask the 27 million and growing working age people to have their lives put on hold and economically destroyed for god knows how long on the off chance it might (and this is a big maybe) save a few more elderly lives for another year or two?
Generally speaking that is true. But, let, me repeat: I have no chronic or pre-existing conditions. I don't take any meds because I don't need to.
But, given all of that, my age automatically puts me in a risk group whether I belong there or not.
Well, the docs say that 65+ is itself a risk elevator, and you can't choose your age.
It's like stacking blocks: each added block increases the likelihood that the stack will fall. You and I each have one block now, and I will add a second about 3.5 years hence.
Those whom may be favoring herd immunity should re-think. Sweden went that way and now has a higher per-capita death rate then the US.
Sweden, the nation typically cited by pandemic denialists who claim lockdowns aren’t necessary, is now seeing deaths surge far beyond the per capita death rate in the United States. As of today, Sweden has now confirmed 192 deaths per million residents, far beyond the 144 per million recorded in the United States, or the 174 per million in Switzerland.
Note that I am not, in any way, shape, or form, disagreeing with your assessment re Sweden. However, I do want to make you aware of Mike Adams's reputation as a hack/quack. Natural News should not be consulted by anyone seeking reliable news.
Note that I am not, in any way, shape, or form, disagreeing with your assessment re Sweden. However, I do want to make you aware of Mike Adams's reputation as a hack/quack. Natural News should not be consulted by anyone seeking reliable news.
OK, I have no idea whom he is or about that site. The link was sent to me by a friend. I do like your screen name though. The NHL needs a stronger following.
Right now the mass shutdowns is hurting far more AAs and Hispanics than the virus.
I agree, more due to them being disproportionately represented in lower-wage occupations deemed essential as well as being more likely to live in food and healthcare deserts.
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You can't wish the virus away. It cannot be defeated. It's not an enemy to triumph over on the battlefield and whip into obedience. It's here.
Agreed.
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It will be addressed via herd immunity. Herd immunity is achieved when the people who are likely to die of the virus die and the survivors have the antibodies. It becomes something comparable to the regular flu (which still kills people, FYI). Even a vaccine won't save everyone, just as some people still due of the flu despite a flu shot. This is the ruthless reality of mother nature.
This is where I begin to disagree. British Prime Minister Boris Johnson once promoted the idea of herd immunity. You saw what happened to *him*, right?
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We do know, as data has steadily showed us despite some people's refusal to accept it, that the vast majority of people who die of the virus are certain demographics with advanced age and existing health problems.
I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "certain demographics" but I agree advanced age maximizes the chance of one being vulnerable to the virus.
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We do know the vast, vast, vast majority (more than 99%) survive the virus.
Actually it's currently closer to a 5.4% mortality rate or 95.6% survival rate for those who have been tested positive so far. The US is not faring so well compared to other countries.
The mass shutdowns have nearly destroyed the economy, thrown 27 million Americans out of work (and many more across the world). That is a problem.
Agreed.
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How much longer can you continue to shut down and ruin the economic livelihoods of tens of millions of younger, working age Americans?
That's a good rhetorical question. Hopefully Gov. Wolf and the Harrisburg legislature won't take the Senate Majority Leader's suggestion of declaring bankruptcy to heart.
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If it was younger people dying of the virus, maybe there's a logic to the shutdowns.
Seemingly healthy people below 50 *are* succumbing the virus, sometimes under eighteen.
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But if the people dying of the virus are mostly people who would die anyway in a matter of time due to their other advanced health problems/age (average tenure at a nursing home is, what, two years, before death), can we plausibly ask the 27 million and growing working age people to have their lives put on hold and economically destroyed for god knows how long on the off chance it might (and this is a big maybe) save a few more elderly lives for another year or two?
If people were to go back to work "today" before the rate of infection has at least slowed down considerably - a dramatic reduction in infections over a two-week period according to White House guidelines - then the odds are high that the virus will spread exponentially. Even if it doesn't kill non-seniors - and there's a lot of evidence that it does - it may make them very sick, to the point that they need to go to the hospital, be intubated, and potentially be put on a ventilator. Besides the stress and risk that will put on our already-overworked hospital professionals and staff, it's already been reported that many who survive the depths of the illness will face irreparable damage to their health.
So those 27 million working age people are currently not only saving the lives of the elderly by staying home, they are saving the lives of their co-workers, their neighbors, their community and themselves.
Making this locally relevant, we all know that Philly proper is a poor city with Black and Latinx households tending to be poor-to-working class. The impact of a premature opening would fall the greatest on them. So if one is truly concerned about the health of those communities, then waiting until the virus impact is minimized for the season would be the most prudent thing to do.
Last edited by FindingZen; 04-23-2020 at 01:05 PM..
If people were to go back to work "today" before the rate of infection has at least slowed down considerably - a dramatic reduction in infections over a two-week period according to White House guidelines - then the odds are high that the virus will spread exponentially. Even if it doesn't kill non-seniors - and there's a lot of evidence that it does - it may make them very sick, to the point that they need to go to the hospital, be intubated, and potentially be put on a ventilator. Besides the stress and risk that will put on our already-overworked hospital professionals and staff, it's already been reported that many who survive the illness will face irreparable damage to their health.
So those 27 million working age people are currently not only saving the lives of the elderly by staying home, they are saving the lives of their co-workers, their neighbors, their community and themselves.
Making this locally relevant, we all know that Philly proper is a poor city with Black and Latinx households tending to be poor-to-working class. The impact of a premature opening would fall the greatest on them. So if one is truly concerned about the health of those communities, then waiting until the virus impact is minimized for the season would be the most prudent thing to do.
A nicely diplomatic response. And you are right. The thing that irks me a bit is that some people are callous enough to promote the idea that "these older people will die anyway, so let's just get back to work." While I know many elderly would give their lives for their younger family members to flourish, how can people think they have the right to decide who's expendable and who is not? I believe it's an ideal born from entitlement and anger.
On the other side, I understand the danger of a bad economy.
A nicely diplomatic response. And you are right. The thing that irks me a bit is that some people are callous enough to promote the idea that "these older people will die anyway, so let's just get back to work." While I know many elderly would give their lives for their younger family members to flourish, how can people think they have the right to decide who's expendable and who is not? I believe it's an ideal born from entitlement and anger.
On the other side, I understand the danger of a bad economy.
So, I guess you are okay with a significant increase to Federal, State Unemployment tax to fund unemployment and make those unemployed whole for how ever long it takes, a tax for loans to small business and and an increase to social security taxes to fund social security payments no longer being made by the unemployed.
So long as everyone is willing to share in the economic cost great. Easy to be virtuous with other people's money.
So, I guess you are okay with a significant increase to Federal, State Unemployment tax to fund unemployment and make those unemployed whole for how ever long it takes, a tax for loans to small business and and an increase to social security taxes to fund social security payments no longer being made by the unemployed.
So long as everyone is willing to share in the economic cost great. Easy to be virtuous with other people's money.
Better to be virtuous with other peoples' money than their lives. Although it doesn't help that people are going to food banks just a few weeks into this crisis, driving luxury vehicles they clearly couldn't afford. But then again, there is a lot that hasn't made sense in this country for a long time.
I do understand the issues of economic collapse and have studied it across several historical empires. So, I know some of what to expect. But, I'm not going to trivialize people's lives nor am I going to look at statistics as the end-all be-all. What you have been proposing has serious holes/flaws. And you're just posting about it on City-Data, so there's no real usefulness. We're both just someone on the internet with an opinion, being taken along for the ride in the real world.
Just curious, do you work at a hospital?
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