PHL Int'l Airport ...Is it time for a facelift? (Penn: tax, litigation)

[Pennsport]

Originally Posted by bridge12

B and C look fantastic and have great food options. They were working within the smaller terminal footprint which couldn't be adjusted and did a great job. The rest of the airport is rather drab, unfortunately, but I do appreciate that PHL management has tried to sprinkle art through the terminals to liven it up a bit. They've done a good job with that.

I think A East and West are due for a facelift. I'm less concerned with D and E, but they definitely need work too. Unfortunately, I don't see American Airlines or the City/State making a huge investment any time soon. While the state has made some great investments in passenger rail and the port, it's interesting they seem to ignore the airport.

Yeah, because we need new solutions to effectively move people and goods quickly and efficiently rather than improving the aesthetics of existing facilities. It's infrastructure vs aesthetics and I for one would much prefer improved infrastructure. If we had the funding for both, that would be of course ideal, but otherwise, I'll deal with a less advanced look/feel and fewer restaurant offerings within the airport terminals. Also, the port improvements and Delaware river dredging led to a huge increase in commerce being shipped through Philly. Millions and millions of dollars to the region and a lot more employment.

[Sammy215267]

Originally Posted by cjseliga

As with most construction projects/upgrades, it comes down to time and money; with those two things anything can be done!

The layout of PHL is less than ideal, with it's "J" shape and the 7 terminals extending from the "J".

Doing massive terminal renovations, isn't easy, do you shut down one side of the terminal at a time, do you shut down an entire terminal, demo everything and start over (which several airports have done)?

Many airports have totally redone or are redoing their check-in/security areas, while keeping the old check-in/security areas open, like PDX and CLT. But those airports are "U" shaped with one central check-in area.

It almost seems like it would be easier to just build an entire new airport somewhere else, rather than continuing to renovate PHL!

The day a new airport is built...I'd be so drunk lol...But it's like where would it got PHL is constrained in its current space also. First on my list would probably be Terminal B / C for Security/ TSA handlings. I do think if the airport upgrades in specific terminals in particular time frame is fine.

American Airlines should definitely invest in some many and upgrade some areas since this is one of their many hubs. But i read a similar article on United trying to cancel or not pay for the upgrades @ O'Hare recently.

Loving all of the input from everyone. Just nice to speak about certain things. ;-)

[cjseliga]

Originally Posted by Sammy215267

American Airlines should definitely invest in some many and upgrade some areas since this is one of their many hubs. But i read a similar article on United trying to cancel or not pay for the upgrades @ O'Hare recently.

American has 10 hubs, 4 of which they inherited after the US Airways merger back in 2015, including PHL.

Even though 70% of the flights at PHL are American, I just don't see them wanting to invest a ton into PHL.

[Duderino]

Originally Posted by cjseliga

American has 10 hubs, 4 of which they inherited after the US Airways merger back in 2015, including PHL.

Even though 70% of the flights at PHL are American, I just don't see them wanting to invest a ton into PHL.

You're definitely underestimating Philadelphia's prime transatlantic location. American has been slow on its plan to grow in PHL because a massive pandemic got in the way, but their strategy is clear:

With JetBlue alliance over, AA shifts its focus to Philly
By Robert Silk |Aug 29, 2023

American Airlines' recent announcements of four additional transatlantic routes from Philadelphia could signal a renewed emphasis by the carrier on its Pennsylvania hub now that its New York-area alliance with JetBlue has ceased.

Beginning in late October, American will move its lone Doha, Qatar, gateway from JFK to Philadelphia. On Aug. 17, the carrier also announced seasonal transatlantic routes from Philadelphia to Copenhagen; Naples, Italy; and Nice, France, beginning next spring.

In a video released earlier this month, American's senior vice president of network planning, Brian Znotins, explained why Philadelphia, where there are no capacity restrictions, works better than slotrestricted JFK on transatlantic routes that rely heavily on connecting traffic. In Philadelphia, he said, American can coordinate up to 40 arrivals at one time, providing feed to international routes. At JFK, the carrier can only bring in as many as nine flights at once.

"So, when we fly from JFK, it's really about the local market -- can we sell to New Yorkers," Znotins said. "And when we fly from Philadelphia, it's really about the entire U.S."

https://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-...s-Philadelphia

[cjseliga]

Originally Posted by Duderino

You're definitely underestimating Philadelphia's prime transatlantic location. American has been slow on its plan to grow in PHL because a massive pandemic got in the way, but their strategy is clear:

I guess time will tell, American can shift flights all they want, but if the flights aren't selling well out of PHL and making a profit, they can always take them away as well. Whatever they giveth, then can also taketh away!

Also, there's a big difference between American adding some international flights out of PHL and deciding to spend/dump hundreds of millions to renovate terminals and other parts of the PHL.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by cjseliga

I guess time will tell, American can shift flights all they want, but if the flights aren't selling well out of PHL and making a profit, they can always take them away as well. Whatever they giveth, then can also taketh away!

Also, there's a big difference between American adding some international flights out of PHL and deciding to spend/dump hundreds of millions to renovate terminals and other parts of the PHL.

According to that article snippet, the flights don't necessarily need to sell well ouf of PHL directly in order for them to leave full.

The airline's vision is to have AA domestic flights from other US cities feed the flights going out of PHL. And if AA can bring in 40 planes at once to feed a handful of international flights, then the need to sell the seats to passengers here diminishes.

[cjseliga]

Originally Posted by MarketStEl

According to that article snippet, the flights don't necessarily need to sell well ouf of PHL directly in order for them to leave full.

The airline's vision is to have AA domestic flights from other US cities feed the flights going out of PHL. And if AA can bring in 40 planes at once to feed a handful of international flights, then the need to sell the seats to passengers here diminishes.

That's great and all, but it still doesn't mean American will decide to pump billions into PHL renovations; like most private companies, they will want the city/state to spend money on the airport first, and I'm not saying that is right or wrong!

Delta is spending $12 billion in airport projects that modernize the airline’s hub infrastructure and customer experience, including new construction at Los Angeles International Airport and New York’s LaGuardia Airport in addition to the work on Salt Lake City's new airport.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by cjseliga

That's great and all, but it still doesn't mean American will decide to pump billions into PHL renovations; like most private companies, they will want the city/state to spend money on the airport first, and I'm not saying that is right or wrong!

Delta is spending $12 billion in airport projects that modernize the airline’s hub infrastructure and customer experience, including new construction at Los Angeles International Airport and New York’s LaGuardia Airport in addition to the work on Salt Lake City's new airport.

Your point is well taken, and maybe AA might be (a) cheap (b) not committed to this strategy for the long run (c) both.

But I would think it would be in the airline's interest to make the connecting-flight passengers at PHL as comfortable (and sated) as possible while they wait and the O/D passengers as happy as possible as well. So the ball's in AA's court — the city Aviation Department has already poured some money into improving the part of the airport most in need of improving save for the TSA security theater experience.

[cpomp]

Originally Posted by cjseliga

That's great and all, but it still doesn't mean American will decide to pump billions into PHL renovations; like most private companies, they will want the city/state to spend money on the airport first, and I'm not saying that is right or wrong!

Delta is spending $12 billion in airport projects that modernize the airline’s hub infrastructure and customer experience, including new construction at Los Angeles International Airport and New York’s LaGuardia Airport in addition to the work on Salt Lake City's new airport.

I don't know how this scenario would play out at PHL, but I believe the LGA and Newark Terminal A were funded by NY/NJ. Perhaps a similar endeavor at PHL could be partially city/state funded and attract new carriers and routes? (it worked in Nashville). And since PHL has 7 terminals, the worst one could close, knock it down / rebuild, and continue down the line (where needed).

I know that is a massive undertaking, but at some point piecemeal repairs and new restaurants won't cut it. And not saying PHL needs an EWR or LGA level overhaul right now, but if nearby airports keep undergoing massive renovations, then PHL needs to catchup at some point.

[Pennsport]

Originally Posted by cpomp

I don't know how this scenario would play out at PHL, but I believe the LGA and Newark Terminal A were funded by NY/NJ. Perhaps a similar endeavor at PHL could be partially city/state funded and attract new carriers and routes? (it worked in Nashville). And since PHL has 7 terminals, the worst one could close, knock it down / rebuild, and continue down the line (where needed).

I know that is a massive undertaking, but at some point piecemeal repairs and new restaurants won't cut it. And not saying PHL needs an EWR or LGA level overhaul right now, but if nearby airports keep undergoing massive renovations, then PHL needs to catchup at some point.

Well, it will keep cutting it until it doesn't. It's only money that matters, not looking as good as X, Y or Z airport. Eventually, when it's absolutely necessary in order to continue to make a profit, it will most likely be some sort of public + private funding compromise executed by tax breaks over decades so the city can keep the cash in the near-term.

None of this is arbitrary though. Everyone seems to be discussing this as if a C-suite American Airlines leader can just wake up and say, "man, we should spruce up our Philly hub, it looks like sh*t." It's all numbers - always numbers. AA is a publicly traded company with an almost $10B market cap. They make decisions based on their P&L and risk assessment; and, stockholders, BoDs, federal agencies, keep them accountable to this. Once the numbers make sense, or the complaints get too loud and enough business is lost, or more likely, the litigation risk exceeds acceptable levels, only then do things happen.

Interesting overview from a Fitch analysis just a couple months ago (looks pretty positive for us IMO): https://www.fitchratings.com/researc...efeasance%20of