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I started watching Alien Covenant ( stopped after 30 minutes and will not go back, junk) but a moment there fell into me.
Android - David? - is talking to his creator, something like this: You are looking for a creator but here I am looking at mine. Time will pass, you wil die and I will not.
That sort of startled me. Ok, same androids go on hundred years space trip. Never gets bored, tired, etc.
Then thougth came. Their time perception should be quite different from humane. You are practically immortal, how would you perceive such change?
Will you even consider time?
Unfamiliar with the show. The concept is interesting - to put oneself in the 'androids shoes' so to speak. I would surmise the indicators of time on those around it would be more like scientific intervals with expanded scope.
Sort of like experiencing the daily interactions of humans, environment, any sensate inputs etc... as one long laboratory experiment. Reminds me of the use of the Android 'Data' in Star Trek as the night shift command control. Basically, the android would experience most everything in a timeline with less concern and with a more scientific lab test viewpoint. It probably would only matter in the ways that impacted time / rhythm cycles on its processing needs.
Sort of like high cycle volumes when having to interact with people and in stressful environments (processing or whatever tasked to do) and then being in a recharge like mode at longer intervals but running system background routine maintenance programs. I guess it also would depend on how much processing AI it was imbued with and its evolution over time. How many upgrades with same basic 'brain' would there be?
I'm guessing the main processor (brain) would realize the interchangeability and its 'life span" would correspond to product upgrades. So to the android, conventional "time" would be only significant to the degree it is used to coordinate activities on a programmed schedule. A very task oriented mindset versus 'time' as an 'expiration' mindset that humans perceive.
Android programming is another issue. The concern over what type of morals / values would be built into its processor as part of critical decision making. It would have advantage with absence of morals as it would go through life with mindset of task, task, task with no feelings of tsk, tsk, tsk if something didn't go as planned. Sort of like the "I was just following orders" response for bad outcomes humans often use.
This is a fun exercise to stretch the synaptic neurons!
Well, thing with "time" is that it is superioreily subjective. Time can drag or freeze or pass in lightning speed, all depends on one's perception of reality. For humans. For an android, this is irrelevant. There is no "subjective" for android. I feel, andorid will not even have perception of time, as android does not really change. Humans do.
Well, thing with "time" is that it is superioreily subjective. Time can drag or freeze or pass in lightning speed, all depends on one's perception of reality. For humans. For an android, this is irrelevant. There is no "subjective" for android. I feel, andorid will not even have perception of time, as android does not really change. Humans do.
It doesn't matter how long the android can exist. Assuming the android is self-aware, then it would probably have to have some kind of subjective perception sense of time, even if the details of that perception are different. The android is still part of the universe and is still subject to the universe's laws of physics.
You mentioned an android saying, "You are looking for a creator but here I am looking at mine. Time will pass, you wil die and I will not." That's not exactly true because it omits the matter of longevity, regardless of how extreme it might be. Although the android's creator will die, eventually so will the android. The difference being that the android would have a greater longevity than its creator. The android will die, or cease to function, and will gradually change by slowly disintegrating because of entropy. As the universe slowly dies, so will everything in it, including the android.
The android would be subject to failing parts and have to seek resources to maintain and repair itself. Over the passage of extreme time, resources would become more fragmented and distantly scattered that it would eventually become impossible to continue making repairs. If the materials of the android remain intact long enough, the temperature of the universe would gradually reach a level of absolute zero, meaning that the energy of atoms and subatomic particles that make up the android would be motionless and fall apart as the space of the universe continues to expand and become more and more empty. By then, our friend, the android, will have completely dissolved into non-existence. The android has been long dead. The only thing left existing would be the expansion of space. And even that might become weaker and weaker and completely fade away.
Long before then, if the android has to find resources to make repairs of itself, and understands that the universe will eventually come to an end, I think the android could be considered as understanding that there's a finite amount of time left and it is trying to survive for as long as it can. That would involve having a perception of time. If it doesn't care whether it exists or not, then it won't bother seeking any resources to repair itself and would perish much sooner.
I have to disagree. It is android. A mechanical device after all.
Here's human. Human is dying the very moment it was conceived. As life goes on, death it taking over and life is slowly but steadily giving way to it.
One may deny this as much as one wants to, but that sense of passing is in every cell, every molecule of a human. Entire human simply feels it. Is it. Passing. I think, that is what caused to develop concept of time to start with, as time does not exist in nature, but PLEASE let's not go that route. There are several threads on that here already.
But here is a mechanical device that is self conscious to a certain degree.
The way it is, so far, it can only be improved over its existence, not get worse. Its components are replaceable and, as such, as science develops, it will be upgraded at certain intervals. So it will not have inherent human sense of passing. It may have sense of necessity of say firmware upgrade.
That said, if a word "psychologically" can be applicable here, it will not feel keen sense of passing, of mortality. For it, time becomes irrelevant. As much as nature does not care about time, as nature is, I think, it should be same way - simply be. With that, I can see how it may be alert for hundreds of years of space travel, by simply being.
I have to disagree. It is android. A mechanical device after all.
Here's human. Human is dying the very moment it was conceived. As life goes on, death it taking over and life is slowly but steadily giving way to it.
One may deny this as much as one wants to, but that sense of passing is in every cell, every molecule of a human. Entire human simply feels it. Is it. Passing. I think, that is what caused to develop concept of time to start with, as time does not exist in nature, but PLEASE let's not go that route. There are several threads on that here already.
But here is a mechanical device that is self conscious to a certain degree.
The way it is, so far, it can only be improved over its existence, not get worse. Its components are replaceable and, as such, as science develops, it will be upgraded at certain intervals. So it will not have inherent human sense of passing. It may have sense of necessity of say firmware upgrade.
That said, if a word "psychologically" can be applicable here, it will not feel keen sense of passing, of mortality. For it, time becomes irrelevant. As much as nature does not care about time, as nature is, I think, it should be same way - simply be. With that, I can see how it may be alert for hundreds of years of space travel, by simply being.
I agree that as humans, we're all biologically doomed to eventually die. A manufactured device such as an android will not biologically die because it is not biological. However, it is subject to having parts that can and will eventually fail from wear or damage. For it to continue to function, it will need to repair or replace those parts. Given the passage of enough TIME, every part of the android will eventually have to be replaced with new parts. If it cannot obtain parts, more and more parts will eventually fail until it is no longer able to function. If the android possesses AI and is capable of self awareness, it will also be aware of it's own limitations and "mortality" that is limited by TIME albeit, perhaps an extremely long period of TIME.
In you're example, the android essentially said that its creator (presumably a biological organism) will die, but that it (the android) will not die. My point is that although it can or will exist longer because it is not a biological entity, it can and will eventually come to its own end. Humans are subject to change over time. They are born, they grow and become stronger, they become weaker, their organs begin to fail, and they die. At death, the human is no longer to think, learn or know anything. Its body will decompose. It has changed from a living organism to become broken down over time into minerals. We are aware of others who have died, and we know that our human lifespan is limited to a certain amount of time. That's a part of our own self awareness.
The android in your example apparently has AI. It is able to recognize its creator and can compare its own existence with that of its' creator's existence. If it can do that, it can be considered being self-aware. The only difference is that one is biological with a shorter lifespan and the other is an artificial machine with a much longer lifespan. If the android is capable of recognizing that difference, would that not be considered self awareness? The error that I see in your example is that the android thinks that it will not die.
I agree that it may have its firmware upgraded, probably many times. If it were not self-aware, why would it bother with upgrading? The only reason I can imagine is that it is aware that the upgrade will improve its ability to function in a greater capacity. So what would happen if it didn't upgrade? The point is that the android is subject to change. Humans are also subject to change. There is nothing in the universe that does not undergo change. Mountains change. Planets change. Stars change. Galaxies change. They also die over the passage of time. Nothing in the universe stays the same or exists forever. Everything is subject to change because of the law of entropy. But the change things undergo varies in the amount of time it takes to change.
If the AI of the android is able to understand that concept, then it would probably also be able to recognize it's own limitations and mortality. The android would be incorrect to think that it will not die and will continue to exist. If it is as intelligent as in the example you gave, it probably understands that it must continue to upgrade its AI and make physical repairs when needed. It can only make such repairs if it has access to the right resources. If it cannot find resources in time, then the damage will continue to fail, and likely result in other parts failing. If it doesn't or it can't find the resources in time, the android will undergo complete failure and cease to function. In a sense, it will be dead. It will be nothing more than a pile of minerals. Presumably, if the android's AI is sufficient enough, then it would understand that it must be able to make repairs and upgrades if it is going to be able to continue to function. That would imply that it possesses a necessary sense of survival. It would recognize it could potentially be subject to passing. But it might have a different view about passing, about dying. That view can change over time.
Let me offer a view that might be easier to understand. When we are young children, we can be aware of other people who are old and die. As children, we don't always think of that happening to us. Even when we are older but still relatively young, old age seems to be so distant to us. The thinking is that it's because our lives have advanced far enough and it may seem like we have plenty of time ahead for us. But when we become old, we start to realize that the end of our life isn't as far off as when we were younger. When we're closer to the end of our lives, we begin to recognize our own mortality and that our longevity is limited. For us, our lifespan may average about 70 or so years, although a small number of people may be able to live to be a little over 100 years.
I agree, we seem to have a built-in sense of TIME. Even prehistoric people must've had a sense of TIME, because they knew people who lived and people who died. They could see the rhythm of the sun rising and setting, day after day. They could see seasonal changes. Maybe they didn't label is as "TIME", but they still experienced it. As humans changed from their hunter-gatherer existence, and small tribal groups merged with other groups for form communities and the beginning of civilization, the concept of TIME became more apparent. Eventually, keeping a record of time became useful and devices were invented to more accurately measure time throughout the day and seasons. We now recognize that we and most forms of life on the planet, have a circadian rhythm. When it's daytime, we're awake and active. When it's nighttime, we sleep and are inactive.
As we've peered into the universe, we understand that the rhythm of TIME can be found in many different scales. While the Earth revolves approximately 24 hours, and makes a single orbit around the Sun in about 365 days, there's a lot more going on than that. Our entire solar system orbits the galaxy once in approximately 200,000 years. Stars can exist for billions of years. And at the other edge of extremity, the rhythm of a Cesium atom vibrates about 9,192,631,770 cycles per second. The smallest measurement of time we know about is Planck Time which is equal to 10-43 seconds (that's a negative ten followed by forty-three zeros), which its the distance it takes light to travel at Planck length. Anything smaller or faster is unknown. TIME, as we understand it, breaks down.
Back to the android. The android may have the potential to exist for millions, perhaps billions of years. It's scale of TIME is going to be vastly different than that of a biological human. But if it's AI is sufficient enough, which apparently the example is, then it is probably also self-aware, and would have a perception of TIME and of it's own eventual demise, although it would be at a much longer scale than its human creator. And if it understands that it needs to replace parts and upgrade itself periodically, then it is probably also aware of its own need to survive, and what it would mean if it does not survive. It would also understand that nothing, including itself, will exist forever. The android might not have any feeling about its eventual demise, but if it is able to make a comparison with its human creator, then you can't be completely sure that it doesn't have some kind of perceptions, feelings, or awareness about it, in part because it is apparently aware of the similarities and differences between it and its creator.
Sadhguru described his enlightenment as follows:
First, he had experience of loosing track of time during meditation. It felt like 10 minutes but 4.5 hrs passed.
Next time, when he fell into deep meditation, he thought he was in it for only a moment. 13 days passed. He came about covered in garlands, large crowd of people gathered around him, as he became a local holy man.
Sadhguru says - enlightenment comes with becoming out of time. Becoming time-less. The true Self. Not the body. The physical.
As in case of an android, it may perceive reality in the same way - being timeless, as it should have no sense of passing.
Very anthropocentric opinion.
Thank you for your time.
You're welcome. Actually you raise a very good point. In the prologue of the science-fiction movie Alien Covenant, the android, David, was talking with its creator, who was business tycoon, Peter Weyland, who was a human. You might be right. The story may indeed represent an "anthropocentric opinion". Perhaps that might also apply to the authors who wrote the story, Jack Paglin and Michael Green? And wasn't the point of the movie about searching for the origin of... humanity?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
Sadhguru described his enlightenment as follows:
First, he had experience of loosing track of time during meditation. It felt like 10 minutes but 4.5 hrs passed.
Next time, when he fell into deep meditation, he thought he was in it for only a moment. 13 days passed. He came about covered in garlands, large crowd of people gathered around him, as he became a local holy man.
Sadhguru says - enlightenment comes with becoming out of time. Becoming time-less. The true Self. Not the body. The physical.
As in case of an android, it may perceive reality in the same way - being timeless, as it should have no sense of passing.
Back in the 1960s, I tried LSD, psilocybin and mescaline, and I also experienced losing track of time. I felt like time and space had no meaning, only a state of infinity with everything being both infinitely vast and infinitely small. Past, present and future were all the same. At least until the effect started wearing off after a few hours. No gurus, meditation or garlands were necessary.
How would you know if androids might perceive reality, time or timelessness in the same way as the Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev? Okay, if an android is little more than a glorified toaster, then it probably doesn't have any concept of time or reality. It just heats up and makes toast. David was apparently aware of its own existence. It might also be aware of its limitations and ultimate demise, although knowing it's an android, it might not really matter. As far as I know, there haven't been any androids built like David, Walter or Ash, other than fictional. Regardless, what makes you think that enlightenment of a person's own "true Self" (self-identity) would be any different, or less real, than what a mystic or guru claims to have experienced?
I didn't really watch that movie. I lost any interest in it after about 30 minutes. It is cheap parody of the original Alien. Idiotic, for what it is. Also, I do not seek deep meaning in movies. But! There may be insight here or thought there.. Artistic types are better connected with astral than most humans and they may have even unwilling insights. Richard Matheson (Robert?)described this quite well in What Dreams May Come.
Thank you again fro keeping conversation alive. Honestly, I can't even explain this. But when I watched that conversation, it stroke me with inhumanity of David. Then, suddenly, I had that interesting sensation of what HIS perception of time may be... A glimpse and it was gone. Fortunately, I do not drink, smoke and have very little knowledge on narcotics. As a Pharmacist - yes, but that's it and that is times well passed.
I think you look at the Q posted from human perspective. What is well understood. I am trying to see it from android perspective. I do not believe it will have any sense of time. Passing, maybe. Whatever it is that nature and its units perceive as such. In nature change is measured by accomplishment and relevant to the change in relationship between stellar objects. But that change is not time. It is what it is. If you really think about it, time as concept is relatively very new thought up idea. Before, naturally living people had natural point of reference. I'll meet you when sun will reach peak of that mountain. Two suns back I met Toomboo. Three full moons ago mammoth came. So on. People simply acknowledged nature and changes in it as is. Just came upon me - death might have been as natural in them, as anything else. Then entire perspective is different.
Wise man said - narcotics, to some people, may permit a glimpse into reality. But they can bring so much damage that I can not permit them in my asram.
Thank you for pleasant discussion.
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You're welcome. Actually you raise a very good point. In the prologue of the science-fiction movie Alien Covenant, the android, David, was talking with its creator, who was business tycoon, Peter Weyland, who was a human. You might be right. The story may indeed represent an "anthropocentric opinion". Perhaps that might also apply to the authors who wrote the story, Jack Paglin and Michael Green? And wasn't the point of the movie about searching for the origin of... humanity?
