What kind of water softener do you have ? (Phoenix, Scottsdale: apartment, foreclosure)

[AZgarden]

I know the water here is very hard. I used to have the Sears water softener where you put the salt in the round box every so often until I got serious back problems and had to have someone else do it. Then the thing got a leak and I junked it. Now I have one of those silver cylinders in the garage that is supposed to be no-salt whole house conditioner. Hah ! I don't think it does anything but sit there. Does anyone have a salt free softener that they really like??

[Howard Roark]

I guess it depends on location where the water is hard. I lived in central Phoenix near North Pointe (Tapatio), near old town Scottsdale, and Ahwatukee in the last eleven years. Never noticed hard water.

I work in another state (southeastern US). I have a dishwasher at this other state's apartment. The items come out discolored with water stains. It's terrible! I started using a liquid detergent and the utensils are better.

Originally Posted by PhxBarb

I know the water here is very hard. I used to have the Sears water softener where you put the salt in the round box every so often until I got serious back problems and had to have someone else do it. Then the thing got a leak and I junked it. Now I have one of those silver cylinders in the garage that is supposed to be no-salt whole house conditioner. Hah ! I don't think it does anything but sit there. Does anyone have a salt free softener that they really like??

[Zippyman]

The only way to soften water is to use salt.

If you're looking for a way to reduce chlorine & improve the taste of your water without using salt, you can get a "whole house" carbon filter like these...

Taste Improvement and Odor Removal, carbon filter systems, chlorine removal, GAC filters

The side benefit of having a carbon filter is that you don't get that chlorine smell when you run your shower.

I use a softener and a carbon-filter and an undersink reverse-osmosis system in my house, but I grew up with great-lakes water, so I'm a bit of a "water-snob".

[jimj]

I'd suggest taking a look at a az local talk show website called "rosie on the house" and look under water conditioners. They only suggest things that have proof they work and vendors that have a ton of hoops to jump through. That's who we will go to when we get the $$$.

[Zippyman]

Originally Posted by jimj

I'd suggest taking a look at a az local talk show website called "rosie on the house" and look under water conditioners. They only suggest things that have proof they work and vendors that have a ton of hoops to jump through. That's who we will go to when we get the $$$.

"rosie on the house" usually provides decent advice, but their take on water treatment is misguided. They advocate "renting" a softener before buying one, and only buying from a company that will deliver salt.

Salt is $3-$4 per bag @ Fry's and they'll load it into your car for free if you ask. - having the same salt delivered ends up costing $10-$15 per bag. If you can't or won't load it into your softener, I think it'd be pretty easy to find a neighbor kid do it for you for a few bucks.

Softeners are a commodity, not a "major investment" like "rosie on the house" seems to think they are. If you call up 10 different "water quality consultants" in the valley, you'll find they pretty much install the same equipment (Fleck, Clack, Autotrol) - the only difference is the sticker on the unit, and the markup.

There are a couple of vendors with unique "systems", however they are inferior and overpriced in my opinion - one touts that it "doesn't use any electricity", the problem is, the installed price is usually $3k or more depending on what the salesman thinks he can shake you down for - and a softener only uses a tiny amount of electricity. The cost premium for that unit far exceeds any savings in electricity.

Another system touts that it has both a carbon filter and a softener in one unit - the problem with that system is that the carbon in that system loses effectiveness in a couple of years, and the resin lasts ten years plus... Oh, and that unit sells for $3-$6k depending on how much the salesman thinks you're good for.

The markup can be substantial - the softener in my house was sold originally for $3500...I'm pretty sure the guy I bought it from is still making payments on it...

It's $900 for the same model brand-new one on the web, and used ones go for about $100-$200 on Craigslist.

Because softeners mostly use the same parts - you can repair & rebuild them very inexpensively, new resin is under $100, and it can be swapped out in an hour or so, by anyone - even with limited mechanical abilities. Control-heads can be ordered on Ebay, fully rebuilt with a warranty & they only take a few minutes to change.

My "water treatment system" consists of a digital softener, a two cubic-foot whole-house backwashing carbon filter & a Watts "zero-waste" reverse osmosis under the sink - all top-shelf equipment.

Total cost installed?

Well under $1k.

Good water doesn't have to be a "major investment", nor do you need a "Water Consultant" to get it.

[observer53]

We had a water softener in the house I grew up in in Phoenix. I remember the bags of salt. Moved from that house in 1967, haven't had a water softener since, and haven't really felt the need for it. I think a lot of people do fine without, but it is all a matter of personal preference. For those who are new here, or contemplating coming here, and reading this, it isn't something everyone has to have.

[jimj]

Originally Posted by Zippyman

"rosie on the house" usually provides decent advice, but their take on water treatment is misguided. They advocate "renting" a softener before buying one, and only buying from a company that will deliver salt.

Salt is $3-$4 per bag @ Fry's and they'll load it into your car for free if you ask. - having the same salt delivered ends up costing $10-$15 per bag. If you can't or won't load it into your softener, I think it'd be pretty easy to find a neighbor kid do it for you for a few bucks.

Softeners are a commodity, not a "major investment" like "rosie on the house" seems to think they are. If you call up 10 different "water quality consultants" in the valley, you'll find they pretty much install the same equipment (Fleck, Clack, Autotrol) - the only difference is the sticker on the unit, and the markup.

There are a couple of vendors with unique "systems", however they are inferior and overpriced in my opinion - one touts that it "doesn't use any electricity", the problem is, the installed price is usually $3k or more depending on what the salesman thinks he can shake you down for - and a softener only uses a tiny amount of electricity. The cost premium for that unit far exceeds any savings in electricity.

Another system touts that it has both a carbon filter and a softener in one unit - the problem with that system is that the carbon in that system loses effectiveness in a couple of years, and the resin lasts ten years plus... Oh, and that unit sells for $3-$6k depending on how much the salesman thinks you're good for.

The markup can be substantial - the softener in my house was sold originally for $3500...I'm pretty sure the guy I bought it from is still making payments on it...

It's $900 for the same model brand-new one on the web, and used ones go for about $100-$200 on Craigslist.

Because softeners mostly use the same parts - you can repair & rebuild them very inexpensively, new resin is under $100, and it can be swapped out in an hour or so, by anyone - even with limited mechanical abilities. Control-heads can be ordered on Ebay, fully rebuilt with a warranty & they only take a few minutes to change.

My "water treatment system" consists of a digital softener, a two cubic-foot whole-house backwashing carbon filter & a Watts "zero-waste" reverse osmosis under the sink - all top-shelf equipment.

Total cost installed?

Well under $1k.

Good water doesn't have to be a "major investment", nor do you need a "Water Consultant" to get it.

Thank you for the very expansive info. Have you found the best place to get the brine tank? Do you have a preference of model # for the clack/fleck? We've always gone with culligan just 'cause it was easy but there's definitely cheaper ways to get the same thing done.
To me a softener is a must have if you're on hard water. Easier to keep fixtures clean and working, easier to keep toilets and tubs clean and better for washing cars not to mention better for your skin.

[Zippyman]

Originally Posted by jimj

Thank you for the very expansive info. Have you found the best place to get the brine tank? Do you have a preference of model # for the clack/fleck? We've always gone with culligan just 'cause it was easy but there's definitely cheaper ways to get the same thing done.
To me a softener is a must have if you're on hard water. Easier to keep fixtures clean and working, easier to keep toilets and tubs clean and better for washing cars not to mention better for your skin.

I bought a couple of softeners with the Autotrol (GE) control heads used off craigslist, mostly because they were almost new and really cheap (I think I payed $125 for one and $150 for the other) . I ended up needing some little parts to install them (a transformer, o-rings, etc) and they were really inexpensive on Ebay, or through my local guy. The water guy I buy parts from has Clack units in his own house, but he actually recommended old-fashioned Fleck control heads for the backwashing carbon filters I bought, simply because they were cheap/reliable & repairable. I don't think you can go wrong if you stick to one of the major manufacturers & stay away from the proprietary stuff (GE, Morton, Kinetico, water-boss).

I sent you a DM with the info for the local guy I buy parts from. He can get complete new systems for cheap, but foreclosure-softeners are even cheaper...

As for whether a softener is necessary here, I dunno. The wife and I have a couple of short-sales under contract and we've been debating putting softeners in them (if the banks ever approve the sales), because even really good faucets will start dripping after about a year due to scale building up in them. The gas water heater in the house we rented sounded like a popcorn popper when it ran because of all the scale build-up, not to mention showers & tubs getting a film on them, dishwashers & icemakers needing repairs, etc.

[BecomingJane]

Originally Posted by Zippyman

I sent you a DM with the info for the local guy I buy parts from. He can get complete new systems for cheap, but foreclosure-softeners are even cheaper...

Would you mind sending me a DM with the info as well? Does your guy install them? Thx.

[observer53]

Gee, I've replaced a water heater once, have not had dripping faucets, the original 26 year old dishwasher is still running fine. I won't be going out and buying a water softener any time soon.