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Agree on the gangbangers. But I've noticed since moving out here 5 years ago that the gang situation and the behavior of the gangbangers is drastically different out here compared with Chicago. I think a lot of that is a function of the differences in the housing stock and density. To me, when you have a dozen gangbangers holding down a corner, that's a dangerous neighborhood. I just don't see that anywhere in Phoenix. Here, you see people that are clearly gang members, but they're really only worried about other gangbangers, something that is a big difference compared with back East. I'm a white guy in my mid-30s...I've had gang-bangers hold the door open for me walking in or out of the Circle K. It seems like if you aren't involved in any shady stuff yourself, your chances of running into trouble and/or being the victim of a crime are pretty slim out here. Back east, the threat of random violence in some areas is very real.
The only difference between Chicago and PHX, is that Chicago's gangs are strictly stuck in the near west and south sides. Its predominantly black, mixed in with huge Hispanic areas like Pilsen. Gangs run rampant there. Ive seen groups of homies hanging out on the street corners many times in PHX. I dont know how much of the city youve seen yet, but (no offense once again) it doesnt seem like much. Ive only been here a few years, but I love just driving around and seeing the area. Ive purposely driven deep into the hoods just to see them. In Chicago I wouldnt fare well because most black ghettos have a complete intolerance towards white people, unless theyre buying drugs. Here in PHX there arent any black ghettos, and I think thats why people believe PHX's ghettos arent "as bad". The crime rates might not match black ghetto levels of, say, New Orleans or Houston, but they definitely are ghettos. Its nice of them to hold the door for you. However, I wouldnt move my family next to them to be their neighbors. Would you?
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Originally Posted by sargeant79
True, but I think the word "ghetto" is often overused and I think your last sentence kind of sums up my take on it here in Phoenix. There are plenty of low income neighborhoods in Phoenix, but I don't really see those types of ghettos you refer to here except for a couple scattered blocks here and there in parts of South or West Phoenix.
Youre correct. Theyre not abundant like they are in older cities. Give it time. Youll see.
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Originally Posted by sargeant79
Good point regarding never seeing white flight in Phoenix. While there have certainly been population shifts in many of the older neighborhoods in Phoenix, most of the city is too new to have experienced a rapid and mass exodus of one particular population in a certain area. One of the things I mentioned in another post in this thread was how Phoenix neighborhoods are divided on economic lines more than racial lines. For that reason as well as just how drastically different Phoenix and Chicago are in terms of density, income, cost of living, etc, I don't really see a situation like that happening here. The closest we probably came was at the low point of the real estate crisis in 2010-2011, when half the houses on many streets in town were vacant. Things have actually rebounded rather nicely however, especially in many parts of town that looked to be doomed 4-5 years ago. If it didn't happen then, I don't think it will ever happen, at least not to the extent that you saw in Marquette Park or other parts of Chicago's south side in the 60's and 70's.
PHX has a giant drug smuggling problem. We have a huge human-trafficking problem. We have a massive car theft problem. Gangs are coming up from South America. Border Patrol is lacking. Illegal immigration is out of control. For a "new" city, Phoenix has shown rapid decay in areas that just shouldnt, and its all because of the outflux of (as you word it) "particular population." There are so many abandoned homes and empty lots and crumbling side streets. The area just SW of downtown by the tracks looks like its 200 years old! lol There is, at any given time, several bum encampments, and mountains of litter. In Chicago, that would never be permitted. Not sure why PHX allows it, it sure is an eyesore!
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Originally Posted by sargeant79
No offense taken as a former resident of that area up until last year. I'll acknowledge that you certainly see some of that on Cave Creek south of about Mountain View. But north of that is a different ballgame. The neighborhood is 100% safe and there are a lot of really cool older (albeit smaller) homes mixed in with a lot of newer houses built in the last 20 years or so. There's an entire city block of brand new construction that was built in the last couple years bordered by 12th and 14th, Shangri La and Mescal. There's also a gated community with million dollar homes a couple blocks north of that. Most of the properties keep the natural desert landscape at the core of the style, so it's not like you have a bunch of well-manicured lawns over there or anything, but most of the homes are very well taken care of. You should turn off Cave Creek Road and check out the neighborhoods over there sometime, especially as you get into the foothills.
I agree. North of there is quite cool and unique. I wouldnt mind living up there. In fact, I used to drive up north just to drive through that area for a different change of scenery. Id usually then take Thunderbird (or another E-W equivalent) back to Scottsdale Rd just because.
The only difference between Chicago and PHX, is that Chicago's gangs are strictly stuck in the near west and south sides. Its predominantly black, mixed in with huge Hispanic areas like Pilsen. Gangs run rampant there.
That's not completely accurate. While there are more "safe" neighborhoods on the north side than in other parts of town, there's plenty of gangs on the north side and plenty of areas that are very shady. Even now that it's gentrified, west Logan Square still has plenty of bad parts. Old Irving around Pulaski and Kedzie used to have a huge Latin King presence...it's been a few years since I've been up that way so it might be different since I moved away. Uptown, Edgewater, and Rogers Park all still have major gang issues as well. Pilsen, on the other hand, has seen gentrification take hold and there are more hipsters and yuppies living in condos there these days than there are gang bangers.
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Originally Posted by BIG CATS
Gangs run rampant there. Ive seen groups of homies hanging out on the street corners many times in PHX. I dont know how much of the city youve seen yet, but (no offense once again) it doesnt seem like much. Ive only been here a few years, but I love just driving around and seeing the area. Ive purposely driven deep into the hoods just to see them. In Chicago I wouldnt fare well because most black ghettos have a complete intolerance towards white people, unless theyre buying drugs. Here in PHX there arent any black ghettos, and I think thats why people believe PHX's ghettos arent "as bad". The crime rates might not match black ghetto levels of, say, New Orleans or Houston, but they definitely are ghettos. Its nice of them to hold the door for you. However, I wouldnt move my family next to them to be their neighbors. Would you?
Been here only 5 years, but I've been in just about every corner of the city. Like you, I try to make it a point to drive through neighborhoods and parts of town I'm not familiar with at any opportunity. Plus, I've got friends on all sides of town now, including many of the areas people have been describing as dangerous neighborhoods. There aren't too many streets in Phoenix that I haven't ventured down at least once.
I lived in Chicago almost my entire life prior to moving out here. I spent better than half that time living on the south side in Bridgeport and Canaryville, areas that many consider unsafe but are really just family areas that can sometimes be a little hostile to outsiders. Had many friends that lived in Englewood, South Shore, and the East Side. One of my best friends lived on 69th and Wolcott and I'd go to his house regularly, although I admit I tried to avoid walking more than a couple houses away from his at all costs. I lived in Humboldt Park 15+ years ago before even the first traces of gentrification started, where there would be shooting on the street in front of my apartment at least twice a week. I've had three different friends get shot in Chicago in the last 10 years, two of which died, and one more childhood friend who died in a shooting when I was growing up.
I'm not trying to make this a contest of who grew up tougher or anything like that, just trying to give you some context. My opinions aren't based at all on a lack of experience seeing Phoenix...I've been all over Phoenix (including south and west Phoenix) and all over every corner of Chicago. I haven't come across any area in Phoenix that I'd be concerned about walking around in as much as I would be in over half of Chicago's neighborhoods. I'm certain at this point that you and I just have drastically different opinions on what constitutes a bad neighborhood.
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Originally Posted by BIG CATS
PHX has a giant drug smuggling problem. We have a huge human-trafficking problem. We have a massive car theft problem. Gangs are coming up from South America. Border Patrol is lacking. Illegal immigration is out of control. For a "new" city, Phoenix has shown rapid decay in areas that just shouldnt, and its all because of the outflux of (as you word it) "particular population." There are so many abandoned homes and empty lots and crumbling side streets.
Don't disagree that these are problems, but they really aren't as bad as they should be for a city this size, especially if you compare to the older, more dense cities back east. Drug smuggling and human trafficking are really only problems for the people involved in those activities. I've never encountered a drug smuggler or human trafficker or had my life impacted by one since moving out here aside from seeing tweakers or hookers walking around in some parts of town.
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Originally Posted by BIG CATS
The area just SW of downtown by the tracks looks like its 200 years old! lol There is, at any given time, several bum encampments, and mountains of litter.
I agree with you that the area you mention southwest of downtown around Grant/Lincoln looks pretty bad. I'd characterize that as one of the worst parts of the city, but I've never been concerned about driving through there. I probably would avoid walking around there at night if I had a choice, but wouldn't think twice about doing so doing the day.
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Originally Posted by BIG CATS
In Chicago, that would never be permitted.
Sure it would be. Haven't you ever been through Lower Wacker? Also, when I was a kid, the area between State and Canal and between Roosevelt and 18th (what people now call Printer's Row when they're putting their condos on the market) was a no-man's land...you had the homeless folks camping, fires in the garbage cans, the works. Today, it's relegated to certain blocks farther out on the south and west sides with more abandoned buildings and vacant lots, but the homeless camps and the blocks that look like bombed out parts of the Middle East are still there. The city doesn't just permit it...they control it and steer it toward certain neighborhoods.
Last edited by sargeant79; 05-06-2016 at 12:28 PM..
That's not completely accurate. While there are more "safe" neighborhoods on the north side than in other parts of town, there's plenty of gangs on the north side and plenty of areas that are very shady. Even now that it's gentrified, west Logan Square still has plenty of bad parts. Old Irving around Pulaski and Kedzie used to have a huge Latin King presence...it's been a few years since I've been up that way so it might be different since I moved away. Uptown, Edgewater, and Rogers Park all still have major gang issues as well. Pilsen, on the other hand, has seen gentrification take hold and there are more hipsters and yuppies living in condos there these days than there are gang bangers.
Sure there are small pockets of problematic areas all over Chicago, but the north side crime isn't anything like the south side near RTH, etc. The loss of Cabrini-Greene and the gentrification of the near north side has done wonders for that area. I had a friend that lived off Pulaski (I forget the cross street) that had a lot of LK graffiti, but I never unsafe there, despite their presence. I haven't been to the Pilsen area in nearly 15 years. Last I went it was fully Hispanic. Im glad to see it become more intermixed!
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Originally Posted by sargeant79
Been here only 5 years, but I've been in just about every corner of the city. Like you, I try to make it a point to drive through neighborhoods and parts of town I'm not familiar with at any opportunity. Plus, I've got friends on all sides of town now, including many of the areas people have been describing as dangerous neighborhoods. There aren't too many streets in Phoenix that I haven't ventured down at least once.
That's cool. You sound like me! About the same age, from the same place (I was Chi burbs), now living in the same area, with the same interest of exploring the city.
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Originally Posted by sargeant79
I lived in Chicago almost my entire life prior to moving out here. I spent better than half that time living on the south side in Bridgeport and Canaryville, areas that many consider unsafe but are really just family areas that can sometimes be a little hostile to outsiders. Had many friends that lived in Englewood, South Shore, and the East Side. One of my best friends lived on 69th and Wolcott and I'd go to his house regularly, although I admit I tried to avoid walking more than a couple houses away from his at all costs. I lived in Humboldt Park 15+ years ago before even the first traces of gentrification started, where there would be shooting on the street in front of my apartment at least twice a week. I've had three different friends get shot in Chicago in the last 10 years, two of which died, and one more childhood friend who died in a shooting when I was growing up.
I never lived in the city proper, so most notorious bad neighborhoods we stayed well clear of. Heck, I remember going to Wrigleyville in the mid-80s and it was rather run down. Now you go there and its like WHOA! Complete gentrification and I never felt unsafe. We used to go to the Metro every weekend for concerts, and park blocks away and never had one issue where we felt the slightest bit unsafe. I love that hood!
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Originally Posted by sargeant79
I'm not trying to make this a contest of who grew up tougher or anything like that, just trying to give you some context. My opinions aren't based at all on a lack of experience seeing Phoenix...I've been all over Phoenix (including south and west Phoenix) and all over every corner of Chicago. I haven't come across any area in Phoenix that I'd be concerned about walking around in as much as I would be in over half of Chicago's neighborhoods. I'm certain at this point that you and I just have drastically different opinions on what constitutes a bad neighborhood.
This all goes back to my original statements. You don't feel as unsafe because there are no fully black neighborhoods here. It might come across as racist, but Im not! Trust me on that. It just seems that most black hoods are very unwelcoming towards white people. I have no issues driving through Hispanic neighborhoods here. I wouldn't venture through them at night alone if gangs are around, but I feel much safer in a Hispanic ghetto than a black ghetto. Once again, Im not racist, its just how I feel. And Im pretty sure Im correct because Ive driven through Pilsen and Maryvale and not once felt threatened (during the day at least). I wouldn't drive through Englewood, though. Only because Im white. Its that bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sargeant79
Don't disagree that these are problems, but they really aren't as bad as they should be for a city this size, especially if you compare to the older, more dense cities back east. Drug smuggling and human trafficking are really only problems for the people involved in those activities. I've never encountered a drug smuggler or human trafficker or had my life impacted by one since moving out here aside from seeing tweakers or hookers walking around in some parts of town.
I agree that it might not affect us directly, but its affecting TONS of lives in PHX, and ALL life is valuable. I cant imagine the horrors these families are facing knowing their children are kidnapped and forced to sexually please the cartel members. Or having to bury your child who was the innocent victim of a useless drug hit. It affects too many people. Most of us close our blinds and watch it all unfold on the news and shrug it off. But the fact is that its a big problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sargeant79
I agree with you that the area you mention southwest of downtown around Grant/Lincoln looks pretty bad. I'd characterize that as one of the worst parts of the city, but I've never been concerned about driving through there. I probably would avoid walking around there at night if I had a choice, but wouldn't think twice about doing so doing the day.
I drive there all the time, never feel fully unsafe. Ive never driven it at night, and don't intend to, but its just fugly over there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sargeant79
Sure it would be. Haven't you ever been through Lower Wacker? Also, when I was a kid, the area between State and Canal and between Roosevelt and 18th (what people now call Printer's Row when they're putting their condos on the market) was a no-man's land...you had the homeless folks camping, fires in the garbage cans, the works. Today, it's relegated to certain blocks farther out on the south and west sides with more abandoned buildings and vacant lots, but the homeless camps and the blocks that look like bombed out parts of the Middle East are still there. The city doesn't just permit it...they control it and steer it toward certain neighborhoods.
The point I was making was a big old empty lot full of bum encampments right next to downtown. Chicago real estate is snatched up and developed. Here in PHX there are vast amounts of big, empty lots all over the place. Just seems odd, that's all. The Grant/Lincoln area is just a bit far out for a hip development to go up there, so I have a feeling its gonna stay that way for quite some time. Although I do see some new developments on 75th Ave just north of Grand, close to Van Buren, though, so who knows? Time will tell.
PHX has a giant drug smuggling problem. We have a huge human-trafficking problem. We have a massive car theft problem. Gangs are coming up from South America. Border Patrol is lacking. Illegal immigration is out of control. For a "new" city, Phoenix has shown rapid decay in areas that just shouldnt, and its all because of the outflux of (as you word it) "particular population." There are so many abandoned homes and empty lots and crumbling side streets. The area just SW of downtown by the tracks looks like its 200 years old! lol There is, at any given time, several bum encampments, and mountains of litter. In Chicago, that would never be permitted. Not sure why PHX allows it, it sure is an eyesore!
I agree: there are areas on the south & west sides that have decaying neighborhoods, and they are eyesores. A lot of that is due to the poor quality of construction that unfortunately is prevalent here. Maryvale was designed to be a district for lower income home buyers (a.k.a. "affordable housing"). Many of the neighborhoods there started going to pot & became infested with blight, drugs, and crime as far back as the 1970s. Why? Cheap quality that translated to cheaper prices, and attracted a cheaper class of people. It all goes hand in hand.
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Originally Posted by pbenjamin
These threads get much less interesting when you start writing novels at each other.
They also get much less interesting when they go off the topic & start discussing the quality of life in other metro areas (Chicago, etc.) which have nothing to do with Phoenix.
Id say its a good mix of all you described. Bums are the least of my problems, its the gangbangers and gangbanger wannabes that bother me the most. I have zero tolerance for those scumholes. If I see a neighborhood with homes and businesses that have bars on the windows, spraypaint everywhere, gangsta types wandering around, groups of thugs hanging out, trashy yards and homes, etc, thats a ghetto to me. I believe most would classify that as a ghetto, too, despite the fact that PHX's ghettos havent had the time nor massive economic downturn to transform them into a place that looks like Memphis' ghetto. PHX also never experienced white flight or anything of the sort. I hate to stereotype, but thats when the ghettos started. Low-income people moved in, chasing out the middle class, and crime and poverty and gangs erupted. My family saw it in Chicago first hand. Its sad, but true. PHX hasnt had that happen. If we do, I believe PHX's ghettos will take on an even worse look. Ive already started to see tiny pockets of abandoned homes in and around South Phoenix. Im talking, you know, 1-3 homes on a street that are boarded up. Nothing like you see in Detroit or Miami, but still downtrodden as can be. I wouldnt classify the old hotel area as ghetto (Cave Creek Rd), I would just classify that as rundown. Lots of drugs and weirdos over there, its definitely ugly. No offense to anyone who lives over there, but I dont see much effort to keep things clean.
I totally understand your concerns, it should be an eye-opener when middle-class areas are allowed to go to pot, become crime-infested and run-down.
I still think you should learn what a true ghetto is, Phoenix has barrios and some bad areas that I don't feel very safe in but I would still hesitate to call them ghettos.
A ghetto is a severely tarnished, crime-infested, impoverished section of a city where members of a minority group live.
Phoenix's southside barrios and even Maryvale might have some characteristics of a ghetto but the bad areas here are mostly separated by income, not race.
in case you "former" Chicagoans haven't noticed recently, there are now shootings, murders, robberies, and all sorts of other crimes, and gangland activities on the north side of Chicago; sure not every hour like in the crappier areas of town, but no longer are you "safer" driving on north lake shore drive than you might be on the Dan Ryan; 2 people shot and killed on Lake Shore drive between montrose and foster just this weekend, and that area has never seen gang activity and shootings like other areas of the city have for years
The gangbangers and criminals know that its easier to find victims in the previously "safer"' areas of Chicago than it used to be, and folks who live there aren't always thinking about their chances of becoming a victim, the way folks on the south and west sides have for years..
Phoenix's southside barrios and even Maryvale might have some characteristics of a ghetto but the bad areas here are mostly separated by income, not race.
Im not sure I would go so far as to proclaim that for all of Phoenix. There are definitely Hispanic-only areas of Phoenix. Just last weekend I had to venture over to an area off Broadway and 7th St. Yeah, thats pretty much Hispanic-only, and very low income. Some side streets off of Central, south of Watkins were absolutely ghetto, I dont care what anyone says. The barrio's here are just as hardcore as the barrio's I saw back in Chicago, and thats no joke.
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