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I'm glad you agree, and you're absolutely right about parents playing the major roles. That's one reason why so many kids turn out average at best, and many others are underachievers. Unfortunately, it's usually the ones with the lower incomes, the least amount of ambition, and the worst parenting skills who are doing the procreating.
Absolutely. Well... The Catholics and the Mormons like to procreate too. But to your point, we had two kids because I had to pay for them. I will say, for us, having kids was THE best and most enjoyable part of our lives. Now we are looking forward to Grand kids.
To your point. Our son started a program where talented college kids went to a disadvantaged elementary schools to mentor a core group of more motivated (poorly parented) students. One child had 18 brothers and sisters from multiple fathers. Really. The principal said their program was the highlight of their day for many reasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native
Spending via our tax dollars isn't a guarantee that academic performance increases. In fact, almost all of the education initiatives here in Arizona have been passed by the voters, which have raised taxes in some way, shape, or form. There have been no notable improvements in education quality or performance, and the bleeding hearts still cry about there not being enough funding ... even though education takes up the greatest portion of the state budget by a long shot, and nearly 70% of our property taxes are given to public education.
What you are forgetting the valuable skills learned that are not being tested. Our well funded district had summer business school immersion programs where the HS group worked with CEO's from local companies tackling business problems. It wasn't a feel good program, they learned a lot. They went off to the UofMN and stayed overnight for a week. Of course there are other programs like Boy's State (leadership), sports (leadership), marching band (culture) etc etc. Standardized tests are not going to test for these learned experiences.
But we agree. On standardized math and reading tests spending 4X more than what is barely needed isn't going to raise those scores unless we are talking smaller class sizes AND assuming teachers are working with the kids who are struggling. When our kids struggled (and we knew it by looking over their homework) WE taught them. Hence they had high standardized test scores. I'm interested about experiences and education in other categories that are not measured by these tests.
Where you can measure and see brain power increase is when kids go off to college in 11th and 12th grade. Both of our kids were full time college students. There was no cost. In AZ, you pay. Every year more and more students are attending these programs in MN. No offense to AZ, but the schools are not in the same league.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native
The true motivated parents/families should be contributing to their own children's education out of their own pockets by placing them in private schools, most of which have a much higher success rate than even the better public schools. Studies have shown that kids who attended private school are twice as likely to earn a bachelor’s degree or higher compared to those in public school.
Since I already paid in to school taxes, I didn't want to pay in more for a private. I grew up poorer. My parents had no business having 6 kids because they could not remotely afford it. I am the youngest of 6. Not one other brother stepped foot in post secondary education but me. I got a 2 year technical degree in electronics and yes, FAFSA paid (tax payers). Then I worked at Honey well and earned my engineering degree over 11 years. Honeywell paid. Same situation with my wife. She had 9 siblings. She had one other sister who went to a baking school (now on welfare) and many of the others dropped out of high school. She is the only one that went to college as well. So we managed by making sure we did our very best. We did everything in our power to extract every single thing we could out of them. So I am a wee bit (over??) passionate on family and education and making sure our kids didn't squander their opportunity. I made damn sure they delivered. We broke the cycle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native
A family doesn't necessarily have to be wealthy or upper middle class to afford private school either. We were considered middle class at best, and my parents managed to put both me & my sister in a reputable private school during most of our youth. They paid for most of our education themselves, and we as a family made lots of sacrifices by not buying the latest trends, fashions, or gadgets that many people feel like they MUST have.
So are you saying you are more educated because you went to a private school versus AZ public schools? For the underfunded K-12 AZ schools, we agree. As a side note, no way in Hell could my parents or my wife's parents afford a private school.
IMHO, if the school is funded well, those who want to learn will and those who don't won't. You simply need to stay away from the bad and undermotivated crowd. So if we sent our kids to the best MN private @$15K a year, I honestly don't think they would have gotten ANY better education. The law of diminishing returns is alive and well. But economy of scale is how our district who spent $11K per student can have just as many opportunities as the $15K private. The stats on going to college is better because they shed the families that didn't care.
For me at least, I liked that I grew up on equal education footings with people who have more money. Because me and my wife would have been left in the dust if we used your approach punishing the leeches and under performers who over procreate. Yes, I put our parents in the category. They were not good parents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native
This is where I disagree. Even with the data you presented, the difference between the overall income figure and what they take out is not that great.
If you take out more $'s that you put in (no matter how much) you are a liability. A solid 50% of all Americans are liabilities. But considering I was a liability from K-12 (subsidized housing, reduced lunches, dad paying nearly zero in taxes etc), I would be a hypocrite if I bitched. Hence, I a NOT bitching about social security and Medicare. Rather pointing out the irony when someone complains how they have already paid. Well, a good chunk of Sun City types are a net-negative liability.
I understand why people want to dodge taxes. I do too! I am not faulting them until they claim that they already paid bla bla bla. That was my main point.
Absolutely. Well... The Catholics and the Mormons like to procreate too. But to your point, we had two kids because I had to pay for them. I will say, for us, having kids was THE best and most enjoyable part of our lives. Now we are looking forward to Grand kids.
To your point. Our son started a program where talented college kids went to a disadvantaged elementary schools to mentor a core group of more motivated (poorly parented) students. One child had 18 brothers and sisters from multiple fathers. Really. The principal said their program was the highlight of their day for many reasons.
What you are forgetting the valuable skills learned that are not being tested. Our well funded district had summer business school immersion programs where the HS group worked with CEO's from local companies tackling business problems. It wasn't a feel good program, they learned a lot. They went off to the UofMN and stayed overnight for a week. Of course there are other programs like Boy's State (leadership), sports (leadership), marching band (culture) etc etc. Standardized tests are not going to test for these learned experiences.
But we agree. On standardized math and reading tests spending 4X more than what is barely needed isn't going to raise those scores unless we are talking smaller class sizes AND assuming teachers are working with the kids who are struggling. When our kids struggled (and we knew it by looking over their homework) WE taught them. Hence they had high standardized test scores. I'm interested about experiences and education in other categories that are not measured by these tests.
Where you can measure and see brain power increase is when kids go off to college in 11th and 12th grade. Both of our kids were full time college students. There was no cost. In AZ, you pay. Every year more and more students are attending these programs in MN. No offense to AZ, but the schools are not in the same league.
Since I already paid in to school taxes, I didn't want to pay in more for a private. I grew up poorer. My parents had no business having 6 kids because they could not remotely afford it. I am the youngest of 6. Not one other brother stepped foot in post secondary education but me. I got a 2 year technical degree in electronics and yes, FAFSA paid (tax payers). Then I worked at Honey well and earned my engineering degree over 11 years. Honeywell paid. Same situation with my wife. She had 9 siblings. She had one other sister who went to a baking school (now on welfare) and many of the others dropped out of high school. She is the only one that went to college as well. So we managed by making sure we did our very best. We did everything in our power to extract every single thing we could out of them. So I am a wee bit (over??) passionate on family and education and making sure our kids didn't squander their opportunity. I made damn sure they delivered. We broke the cycle.
So are you saying you are more educated because you went to a private school versus AZ public schools? For the underfunded K-12 AZ schools, we agree. As a side note, no way in Hell could my parents or my wife's parents afford a private school.
IMHO, if the school is funded well, those who want to learn will and those who don't won't. You simply need to stay away from the bad and undermotivated crowd. So if we sent our kids to the best MN private @$15K a year, I honestly don't think they would have gotten ANY better education. The law of diminishing returns is alive and well. But economy of scale is how our district who spent $11K per student can have just as many opportunities as the $15K private. The stats on going to college is better because they shed the families that didn't care.
For me at least, I liked that I grew up on equal education footings with people who have more money. Because me and my wife would have been left in the dust if we used your approach punishing the leeches and under performers who over procreate. Yes, I put our parents in the category. They were not good parents.
If you take out more $'s that you put in (no matter how much) you are a liability. A solid 50% of all Americans are liabilities. But considering I was a liability from K-12 (subsidized housing, reduced lunches, dad paying nearly zero in taxes etc), I would be a hypocrite if I bitched. Hence, I a NOT bitching about social security and Medicare. Rather pointing out the irony when someone complains how they have already paid. Well, a good chunk of Sun City types are a net-negative liability.
I understand why people want to dodge taxes. I do too! I am not faulting them until they claim that they already paid bla bla bla. That was my main point.
Actually no, you wouldn't <bold>. You are not responsible for what your parent(s) did/do. Rather, you ARE responsible for what you do once you are out on your own. Having read many of your posts you've done quite well for yourself given from whence you came.
No hypocrisy here...
Us young folks are paying right into the Social Security system for something we will probably never realize and for the immediate gain of retiring Baby Boomers FWIW, minor school taxes on some of the most underfunded schools in the nation can't be so bad.
I agree, and the same argument about social security can be made about education.
We pay into social security knowing we don't presently use it and chances are we will pay more into the system than draw out when we retire.
But all of us have social security taxes withdrawn from our paychecks just like we have education taxes added into our property taxes for the local school districts, it's all about contributing to the public good.
Purposely avoiding school taxes like Sun City residents do, well that might be acceptable and legal but it still bothers me especially when most of them had their education paid for through other people's taxes when they were schoolchildren.
Purposely avoiding school taxes like Sun City residents do, [/QUOTE]
How are they doing that? There is no school tax. There is nothing to avoid.
Many people don't pay a local income tax because there isn't one where they live. Are they purposely avoiding taxes? I never paid a tax for community colleges before I moved here since we did not have them. Was I purposely avoiding taxes?
You cannot purposely avoid something that doesn't exist.
We pay into social security knowing we don't presently use it and chances are we will pay more into the system than draw out when we retire.
But all of us have social security taxes withdrawn from our paychecks just like we have education taxes added into our property taxes for the local school districts, it's all about contributing to the public good.
We pay into Social Security for the primary purpose of contributing to our own retirement funds. In other words, all or most of us will benefit in some way from that contribution later in life. In contrast, we pay education taxes that benefit only a certain population segment: those with kids in public school. My main complaint about SS is it's run & managed by the gov't, but the concept of it being an income source for retirees is a good thing ... however, that should never be the only income which seniors rely on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java Jolt
Purposely avoiding school taxes like Sun City residents do, well that might be acceptable and legal but it still bothers me especially when most of them had their education paid for through other people's taxes when they were schoolchildren.
As I stated previously: most of the retirees who live in the Sun Cities paid into the system via their taxes throughout their working lives, so they have more than contributed. If Sun City residents live there mainly to avoid paying the large property tax segment for public schools, so be it! Many of them are on fixed incomes, and it's not exactly easy for seniors to fork over that extra money every year, which can easily be in the thousands of dollars. Avoidance of school taxes is definitely not the only reason why those kinds of communities exist, but I'd say it's a great bonus!
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But to your point, we had two kids because I had to pay for them. I will say, for us, having kids was THE best and most enjoyable part of our lives. Now we are looking forward to Grand kids.
The principal said their program was the highlight of their day for many reasons.
For the underfunded K-12 AZ schools, we agree. As a side note, no way in Hell could my parents or my wife's parents afford a private school. 
