Light Rail is a Fiasco that I will never ride again (Phoenix: how much, construction)

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by urbancharlotte

They often say "buses would be better". The truth is they would protest tax money towards an all bus system too LOL!!!

So true; rail haters advance the "buses are better" argument whenever they're backed into a corner and asked to provide an alternative, but not once can I recall hearing about anti-rail forces sponsoring a ballot initiative to expand bus service. It's likely that most rail haters have never even been on a city bus.

[HX_Guy]

The planning didn't fall short...the people of Phoenix did.
They tried back in the 80s to put in an elevated rail system that was much more expansive then the current light rial...and guess what, it got voted down.

You have to remember that this is a starter system. Imagine for a minute if they would have opened up with 40 miles of track, at $2.8 Billion, and it would have have the city under construction for another 4 years...how well received do you think that would have been? It will expand, it takes times.

Going off that...that is another thing people can't seem to wrap their minds around. Phoenix will continue to grow. It's not going to stay stagnant and it's not going to have negative growth. People keep saying how "it's too late, Phoenix is too spread out". Too spread out, yes...but too late? Never. Where do you propose the next million people that move here should live? Keep adding to the fringes?

I think earlier generations used to think about the future more and be less selfish, at least that's the feeling I get from older cities with their architecture and such. Today it seems like everyone is doing things for themselves only and to make a buck. The point I'm trying to get across is that light rail will develop the city different then it has over the past 50 years. It won't happen today or tomorrow or next year...but think of how Phoenix can look in 30 years from now with the light rail vs how it could look without it.

[green_mariner]

Can light rail be used in every city? Yes. Can it be built to the top standards? Yes. The questions are why won't it be done? Why not just DO IT?

[HX_Guy]

Originally Posted by miamiman

Nothing. This is exactly the point.

I guess your definition of nothing must be different then mine.

If...

Phoenix Convention Center
The Phoenix Art Museum
Phoenix Museum of Hisory
Phoenix Science Museum
Phoenix Central Library
Chase Field (Diamondbacks)
US Airways Center (Suns)
Dodge Theatre (concerts)
Orpheum Theatre (plays/shows)
Herberger Theatre (plays)
Phoenix Symphony
Heard Museum
First Friday art walks
Mill Avenue
Sky Harbor Airport
Countless amazing restaurants

...are your idea of "nothing", well then, yea, I guess you're right...there is nothing to do or see.

[_Charles_]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

I guess your definition of nothing must be different then mine.

If...

Phoenix Convention Center
The Phoenix Art Museum
Phoenix Museum of Hisory
Phoenix Science Museum
Phoenix Central Library
Chase Field (Diamondbacks)
US Airways Center (Suns)
Dodge Theatre (concerts)
Orpheum Theatre (plays/shows)
Herberger Theatre (plays)
Phoenix Symphony
Heard Museum
First Friday art walks
Mill Avenue
Sky Harbor Airport
Countless amazing restaurants

...are your idea of "nothing", well then, yea, I guess you're right...there is nothing to do or see.

Where does the Light Rail stop convenient to Sky Harbor? That would be great but I don't recall seeing that anywhere on the published routes.

[HX_Guy]

44th St/Washington St. Get off the light rail, get on the airport shuttle. Pretty convenient.

[chandlerguy]

Originally Posted by silverbear

This post is so full of nonsense that most of it isn't worth responding to, but one things needs to clarified. Rail haters tend also to be Phil Gordon haters, and blame him for everything they don't like about the train, just as they try to hold him responsible for the whole illegal immigration problem. The problem: Phil Gordon didn't design the light rail line or its route. He inherited it from his predecessor Skip Rimsza, who was in office in 2000 when the rail line was first approved.

As for those buses, anyone who thinks buses can do everything a train can do has probably never commuted via either. Based on just a week of riding, I can say that the Phoenix rail is faster, quieter, and more pleasant to ride than any Valley Metro bus. It also does a far better job of drawing discretionary riders. Nevertheless, bus service has been dramatically improved as a result of Transit 2000 and Proposition 400. In fact, more local funds have gone to bus expansion than rail. It's a myth that rail competes with buses for funds.

You have a point about those who hate the light rail probably also hate Gordon. That's because he deserves a lion's share of the blame for this mess. You guys can try to shift the blame to Rimza all you want, but the buck stops at Phil Gordon's desk. It was Gordon who pushed the light rail for his selfish political gain, and it's Gordon who should choke on the result.

You are dead wrong that the light rail doesn't compete with busses. As proof, the red line was cancelled after the light rail started operated. A flawed bus system was traded for an even worse trolley car.

One more thing -- you are wrong that immigration reformists blame Gordon for the entire immigration mess. I challenge you to quote one prominent member of that movement that blames Gordon for the entire problem. Phil Gordon is responsible for turning Phoenix into a sanctuary city for illegal aliens and a few other crimes against the USA, but that's a long way from the huge immigration problem of the entire nation.

[chandlerguy]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

I guess your definition of nothing must be different then mine.

If...

Phoenix Convention Center
The Phoenix Art Museum
Phoenix Museum of Hisory
Phoenix Science Museum
Phoenix Central Library
Chase Field (Diamondbacks)
US Airways Center (Suns)
Dodge Theatre (concerts)
Orpheum Theatre (plays/shows)
Herberger Theatre (plays)
Phoenix Symphony
Heard Museum
First Friday art walks
Mill Avenue
Sky Harbor Airport
Countless amazing restaurants

...are your idea of "nothing", well then, yea, I guess you're right...there is nothing to do or see.

I said there was four worthwhile stops. Most of the ones you listed are included your list. The trolley doesn't go to the Sky Harbor Airport -- look at the map, dummy!

So you apparently think it's worth spending $1.4 billion to give a few yuppies a trolley to some museams, sports stadiums, and Mexican food restaurants. I think it would be better to use the money to provide mass transit for the working poor instead of catering to drunk frat boys, sports fans, and gangstas that are going to prey on the fools who use this blunderbus.

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by ArizonaBear

As for the 'socialist' factor: freeways also come to mind; never mind that all taxpayers fund them-------pedestrians are not usually allowed on them.

The above stated: freeways and Light Rail both have their uses.

Freeways have a demonstrable return on investment and everyone benefits from them. They are critical transportation routes essential to commerce and the delivery of services. The same agrument could not seriously be made for light rail. It will benefit a handful of businesses and riders. The city was doing fine economically without it.

[chandlerguy]

Originally Posted by miamiman

Chandlerguy: I completely agree. The light-rail is a sham, and everyone knows it. The system traverses the shadiest areas, it's NOT an attractive alternative to the automobile, and many of the municipalities who are responsible for funding light-rail are extremely cash strapped.

The light-rail has only been running for slightly more than a week. It is still a novel idea to many in the Phoenix area. Within the next month or so, ridership will drop like a rock. The system will then fall into disrepair and become a haven of crime and other social ills.

The State of Arizona is cutting services like senior centers, medical care etc because they are in debt. I find it more than coincidence that the state is in debt by $1.2 billion while the trolley car cost $1.4 billion.

When I was sitting inside that thing somebody had already engraved gang insignias into the window. They are staking out territory already.