Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I am originally from Portland before logging the past 15 years in the Desert. Portland did establish an urban growth boundary, making the cost of developing outside of it a financial undertaking. I believe it was around 2000 when the proposition of an urban growth boundary was put on the ballot in Phoenix. With all the Real Estate and Developer interest it did get shot down. I voted for the growth boundary and I am still tied into the Real Estate field.
A growth boundry would actually probably be pretty devestating to Phoenix, at least in the short term. A lot of the economy relies on building new houses/strip malls/etc.
A growth boundry would actually probably be pretty devestating to Phoenix, at least in the short term. A lot of the economy relies on building new houses/strip malls/etc.
Some of the sprawling developers would probably lose out and some might fall to the wayside. But other developers would take their place, developers who are more original, more dynamic, and DIFFERENT. That's something this place needs - different thinking.
I think that would be the best thing that could happen for a place like Phoenix. But, I'm not holding my breath.
The problem is we are over run with people accepting lower standards. I to have grown up and remember the kindler gentler arizona. Now our freeways are all bound up where they need to be wider, you think that they could have looked at Cali's problems with the roads and learned. People are all me me me here no longer how can I help you, that is a problem everywhere. People need to remember that someday they will need help, and noone will be there.
The problem is we are over run with people accepting lower standards. I to have grown up and remember the kindler gentler arizona. Now our freeways are all bound up where they need to be wider, you think that they could have looked at Cali's problems with the roads and learned. People are all me me me here no longer how can I help you, that is a problem everywhere. People need to remember that someday they will need help, and noone will be there.
Well, unfortunately I don't think Phoenix can build itself out of the traffic problem at this point. Bigger and wider freeways is only going to cause more sprawling development and less mixed development. I mean, even if you forget about how ugly strip malls are...why don't they place them in areas that are close to neighborhoods? You should be able to walk to at least SOME of your daily errands. I'm not even talking about commuting to work here. Not only is it better for traffic, better for the environment, but it is healthier! But that is unheard of here. I try and walk to as many places as I can. I am lucky because I live in an older neighborhood that has some commercial zones not only on the edge of the area, but within it. And maybe if these commercial zones were closer to our homes we would finally demand some better architecture and originality. Don't you people get sick of the same old Taco Bell facade everywhere? Monotonous and boring.
But again, I am sorry. I understand these are all just dreams for a place like Phoenix. This place is WAY TOO far gone. Just monitoring where the majority of people are choosing to live that come on this website (Chandler Exhibit A) proves that things are never going to change. And 20 years from now when China is the world super power and we are struggling to get enough oil to fuel our countless and needless trips in our SUVs for everything under the sun, we are going to regret it.
Just a thought - for those who like to keep harping on the uneducated or stupidity of people in Arizona, it most likely isn't the 20% who are native Arizonans. It's the 80% of the people that moved from the Midwest, East Coast, South East and Northwest who are just a little senseless/uneducated in their own right that bring the level down for everybody.
Being that I'm a native Arizonan whose heart isn't here anymore, I'll take that as a compliment.
Another poster mentioned earlier that most everyone moves here for the sun, and that tends to bring in the less-educated cloddish types. I agree! People should be moving to a large metropolitan area for mainly the job opportunities. Finding an affordable place to live is also a factor, but let's put it this way - you get what you pay for. Phoenix is still extensively cheaper than Cali and many other areas; but you wouldn't catch me buying a piece of stucco with all kinds of flaws. These new houses have so many problems with the construction>>>>>>>>>>> but hey, what can I say - lousy workmanship goes along with the low mentality here!
Being that I'm a native Arizonan whose heart isn't here anymore, I'll take that as a compliment.
Another poster mentioned earlier that most everyone moves here for the sun, and that tends to bring in the less-educated cloddish types. I agree! People should be moving to a large metropolitan area for mainly the job opportunities. Finding an affordable place to live is also a factor, but let's put it this way - you get what you pay for. Phoenix is still extensively cheaper than Cali and many other areas; but you wouldn't catch me buying a piece of stucco with all kinds of flaws. These new houses have so many problems with the construction>>>>>>>>>>> but hey, what can I say - lousy workmanship goes along with the low mentality here!
Lousy worksmanship is not due to lack of intelligence. It's a function of our quantity-over-quality capitalist mentality which places consumption above all other concerns. Practically everything made nowadays was made better yesterday, including houses. You cannot blame shoddy construction on the people of Phoenix (that's an unfair accusation), nor can you ignore that this occurs everywhere else as well. My condo in San Diego was the coldest place I've ever lived in (built in 1994). I froze every winter in SD more than I did in upper Michigan! My Phoenix apartment has single-pane windows that wouldn't support the weight of a leaning child (and I'm on the 3rd floor).
As far as cost of living, I find there to be only significant differences in the price of housing between AZ and CA and not much else. You pay more for gas in CA, but more for vehicle registration in AZ (at least I did). Food is comparable, maybe slightly higher in AZ. Utilities higher in AZ because of the climate. But, overall it's the costs related to housing that kill California for most people.
The problem is we are over run with people accepting lower standards. I to have grown up and remember the kindler gentler arizona. Now our freeways are all bound up where they need to be wider, you think that they could have looked at Cali's problems with the roads and learned. People are all me me me here no longer how can I help you, that is a problem everywhere. People need to remember that someday they will need help, and noone will be there.
The decay of our UNITED States shows up in small perceptible things like you mention. It used to be a kinder, gentler USA as well, not just Arizona. Quality is job #4,631 now, OR it's only what rich people can buy. I take as examples of our acceptance of lower standards such things as our government's response to Katrina--I'm amazed DC wasn't burned to the ground over that. But, we accepted lower standards and didn't care that somewhere in the vastness of our so called UNITED States, many were suffering terribly. Applying the same phenomenon to Phoenix, we see that everybody's moving to Chandler (creating more sprawl as another poster inferred) and forgetting what doing that accomplishes. Basically, America doesn't solve problems anymore, it ignores them. Everything is disposable, including cities. If we don't like it, we'll just build another one next door (Phoenix and Chandler come to mind again).
The only solution I can offer for Phoenix is to build UP. When people live on top of each other they interact more, they can better consciously identify with each other (all in the same boat), and the grocery stores will HAVE to be within walking distance! That's why New York, San Francisco, and Hong Kong all work as cities, in my opinion.
Location: 5 miles from the center of the universe-The Superstition Mountains
1,084 posts, read 5,792,396 times
Reputation: 606
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jill Warner
I lived up in N. Ca for 15 years and can't consider San Francisco a cultural gem. We went to the last AIA convention In S.F we will ever attend several years ago. We stepped over human waste and even had the displeasure of watching someone relieve himself between two BMW's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Holland
San Francisco has actually been rated, along with Honolulu, as the highest rated most liveable American city in the world city rankings. Phoenix rated extremely poorly. Of course there are going to be people though that don't like San Francisco, but for the majority of people, there is no doubt that San Francisco is long way ahead of Phoenix as a quality city and that Phoenix would be at the cesspool end, as it is in the quality city survey.
Having been educated in Arizona this may be too difficult, but I will attempt to analyze these two opposing views. Please bear with me:
Jill Warner has had a very negative personal experience in San Francisco, where she "stepped over human waste and even had the displeasure of watching someone relieve himself between two BMW's."
Ms. Holland however, dismisses this observation with the comment, "Of course there are going to be people though that don't like San Francisco."
Ms. Holland supports her position with, "San Francisco has actually been rated, along with Honolulu, as the highest rated most liveable (sic) American city in the world city rankings. Phoenix rated extremely poorly."
Sorry Jill, but Ms. Holland is right. The conduct of this worldly, intelligent and no doubt highly educated gentleman you encountered in San Francisco was surely an aberration and certainly not indicative of the societal norm of this world class city.
Or perhaps, in your judgmental, narrow mindedness, you failed to grasp that you were witnessing an exquisitely talented visual artist asserting his indigenous sovereignty against the onslaught of governmental oppression which seeks to enslave him, in so doing expressing his anarchistic philosophy concerning nihilistic consumerism which has permeated the industrialized neoconservative machine that is America today.
Even a dim-wit like me figured this out! Come on Jill, what were you thinking???
To be completely fair, we must consider that this gentle, misguided soul (or drunk dirtbag) was simply urinating between two vehicles.
Ms. Warner says they were two BMWs, and we all know that in Phoenix it would have been two pickups. CASE CLOSED.
Regardless of which scenario you believe to be true, the only logical conclusion can be that THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT but that San Francisco is 'world class' and deserves to be one of 'the highest rated most livable American cities' while Phoenix is "at the cesspool end." (Have a few more drinks and keep telling yourself that.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Holland
That reminds me. I noticed on here that Arizona is the 50th smartest state as can be seen on the link below.
The only solution I can offer for Phoenix is to build UP. When people live on top of each other they interact more, they can better consciously identify with each other (all in the same boat), and the grocery stores will HAVE to be within walking distance! That's why New York, San Francisco, and Hong Kong all work as cities, in my opinion.
It looks like the downtown Phoenix area is trying to build up, so that's a good step.
However, going vertical is just 1 small part of the equation. Even if Phoenix's horizon looked like Chicago's, there's still a significant lack of nightlife, arts, entertainment, higher education, or public transit here. There are 2 sports arenas and some concert halls - but when there are no games or concerts, everything shuts down after 7pm. What good is a tall skyline if there's nothing below to see or do?
But you're right about New York and Frisco (as bay area folks call it). There is so much to see and do in San Francisco, and you don't even need a car. Even the many beggars and the homeless are overshadowed by the much finer points of the city. I took the b.a.r.t. trains from Fremont to Frisco many times for the big city experience, and it was a treat.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I agree
