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Well, it's official. I WILL be moving to your fair city after all, albeit I don't know a firm date (most likely in December). With that being said I've been spending most of my free time poring over every nook-and-cranny of the city with a fine-toothed comb via satellite imagery, Wikipedia/Wikimapia, searching threads on this sub-forum, reading up on hot topics/upcoming projects in various neighborhoods, scanning CraigsList to see rental inventory in each area, etc., etc. I moved to Northern Virginia in a hurry and ended up spending a year-and-a-half living somewhere intrinsically against my comfort level, so this time I want to make sure my impending relocation goes well.
I know Shadyside is the de-facto suggestion for a young gay liberal yuppie such as myself, but I personally have a preference for grittier neighborhoods that have a lot of potential and seem to be on the upswing. While I'm still open to other suggestions (and please give me your ideas) my top two neighborhoods that I find myself being unable to choose between are Mt. Washington and Lawrenceville. I will be working in the Federal Building near the Convention Center on the northeast edge of Downtown, so this would put me within a long walk of Mt. Washington (via the Monongahela Incline) or a very long walk/moderate bike ride of most parts of Lawrenceville (albeit through the still relatively unattractive and run-down Strip District).
Some of my concerns?
-Which neighborhood, overall, offers ample on-street parking? Does one neighborhood have permit-parking only while the other one tends to be "first come; first served?" Which neighborhood would have a higher chance of my car being vandalized? I drive a Mazda and keep valuables out of sight, so it's not like my car is a huge liability, but I do have a funny VA vanity license plate that might make my car a prime target for juvenile mischief in particular (which I suppose could happen in ANY neighborhood).
-Do the incline cars operate during inclement weather? If I'm planning to move to Mt. Washington, walk to the Monongahela Incline, and then walk across the bridge to work Downtown, what other walking option would I have if the incline was closed due to snow/ice? How "safe" is the walk/bike ride through the Strip District between Downtown and Lawrenceville after dark? Are there any bike racks near to the Federal Building?
-Which neighborhood is more "gay-tolerant?" I'm not the "I'm here, I'm *****e (intentionally misspelled), get used to it" type, but where would my neighbors be less likely to give a darn about my sexual orientation? I'm guessing Lawrenceville, with its growing arts community, would be more liberal, tolerant, and accepting on the LGBT front, but do you foresee me being harassed or discriminated against in Mt. Washington? It's a shame I have to ask this in the year 2010, but I DID have some "issues" in my native Scranton, and Pittsburgh really is just a larger version of Scranton in many respects. I'm still numb to romance after some trauma here, but eventually I may want to dip my feet back into the dating pool. Are there any gay-oriented bars/night clubs in/around town, and, if so, where are they? I'm guessing the East End?
-Which neighborhood, do you think, could benefit most from someone who wants to pitch in? Yes, I am indeed asking you "Which neighborhood is struggling more?" I would like to become active in a neighborhood association or other local civic group in whichever neighborhood I choose to help with litter clean-ups, landscaping plantings, crime watches, block parties, fund-raisers, and other projects along those lines, and since I have a lot of love for the city and a lot of energy within me I'd like to put my efforts to use where they are needed most. It looks like Lawrenceville might still be the neighborhood that is "transitioning" more than Mt. Washington.
-How high is the city's wage tax (earned income tax?) and how is it levied? Does the city mail you a bill once per year? Here in Virginia we have a personal property tax levied upon us for every car, boat, trailer, etc. we own, and that is mailed to us annually. I've never before lived anywhere with a wage/earned income tax and don't really understand the fundamentals of it.
-I'm a very active runner. Which neighborhood would be more suitable? I'm guessing Mt. Washington with the presence of Grandview Park and Grandview Avenue, but Butler Street and Allegheny Cemetery might be nice for running too.
-Do both neighborhoods have their own grocery stores and other daily essentials easily accessible? I don't need a Starbuck's, Whole Foods, and a Banana Republic. A Giant Eagle, a barber shop, an ice cream parlor, and maybe a library would suit me well.
I'll add more questions as they come to mind. Sorry again about this, but I'm doing my homework VERY extensively this time.
Second, I voted for Mt. Washington. I'm not going to address all your questions in detail, but I will cover some and I think that will help explain my choice.
(1) I think the biggest risk to your car would be from people from outside your neighborhood, and I think there would be more people like that to worry about in Lawrenceville.
(2) The inclines do indeed run in bad weather--I think the number of shutdowns over time has been extremely low, because the technology is really very robust. You can also take the T at the bottom of the Mon Incline over to Steel Plaza if you don't want to do the whole walk over the bridge and through Downtown to the federal building (that is a great walk, but in terrible weather it would be nice to have an alternative). Meanwhile, the bike to Lawrenceville, while doable, is going to be more difficult and less pleasant on a regular basis, and way worse in bad weather. To me this factor is a slam-dunk in favor of Mt. Washington.
(3) I actually think the gay-friendly issue doesn't particularly point either way. There is going to be a mix of both younger and more progressive types and older and less progressive types in both places, even if the proportions are slightly different. The thing is, it really isn't a Pittsburgh trait to actually say or do anything about what other people are up to, so you just aren't going to notice the people who, if asked, might have some negative things to say aout gay people.
(4) There will be plenty of local options to pitch in both places. This is particularly true if you don't get hung up on neighorhood boundaries.
(5) The EIT in the City is a flat 3%, and the feds will just take it out of your paycheck.
(6) Both places have the basic sort of retail you are describing.
(7) There is going to be more accessible green space in Mt Washington, if that is the sort of run you have in mind.
Overall, in my view it is mostly a wash, and either would probably meet your needs. But if you want a walking/biklng commute to the federal building, I think that very clearly makes Mt. Washington your best choice, at least given your concerns and preferences as stated here.
I don't know anything about Mt. Washington, but I can tell you a few things about Lawrenceville.
I never felt self-conscious about being gay when I lived there. I don't think I broadcast either "gay" or "straight" out of every pore, particularly. However, it's a large neighborhood, and I may have lived on one of the better blocks. I understand the 40s to be the best part of Lawrenceville (I have no proof, nor even anything anectotal), and I lived off 42nd. But I never went exploring.
Parking was never a problem. In the snow, though, it became very "parking chair." I suppose it matters how close you live to either Butler or Penn.
It's two miles exactly from 1000 Liberty Avenue to the intersection of Penn Ave and Butler Street, which is the very beginning of Lawrenceville. If you continue along Butler, the hill is to your right, and you have to walk up it. If you take Penn Avenue, the hill is on your left, and you can walk down it. Here's a map: Google Maps
Given that you're a runner, and considerably younger than I, you may not find walking up the hill all that awful (you may even prefer walking, or running, up the hill). But it's something to at least consider if you're walking to and from L'ville every day. I lived almost exactly mid-hill, so I used to walk down to Butler when I went out, and came home via Penn so I could walk down the hill again, whenever possible. This hilly part lasts at least until the cemetery (45th Street), but I don't know about anything beyond that.
There's a Shop 'n' Save in L'ville, at 450 56th St (Butler Street/55th-56th Streets): Google Maps. I used to shop in the Strip District, though. I like that kind of shopping better than going to a supermarket, and it's so close. You'd be walking through twice a day, so you might like that, too. Go to 21st St. and Penn Avenue on the map to see the main intersection in the strip. There's another supermarket, kind of downscale, at the corner of Liberty Ave and Main Street, in Bloomfield about a block from L'ville. Currently, it's called Shur Sav.
L'ville has its own library branch, at 279 Fisk Street, zipcode 15201.
I think I've answered as much as I can, but if anything else occurs to me, I'll let you know.
Thanks so much! I was nerve-wracked, but this past Wednesday morning I was summoned to my office manager's office. He told me that he spoke to his superior, who said she'd definitely be able to make it happen, but he wanted to just make sure it's what I "really wanted" first. Given prior history with others who have transferred on/around the Holidays is likely for me to be living in the Steel City.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH
Second, I voted for Mt. Washington. I'm not going to address all your questions in detail, but I will cover some and I think that will help explain my choice.
That's fine. I just appreciate any and all insight I can get. It seems like both neighborhoods, surprisingly, are comparably-priced, so all things being equal I just need to help sway myself towards one or the other.
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Originally Posted by BrianTH
(1) I think the biggest risk to your car would be from people from outside your neighborhood, and I think there would be more people like that to worry about in Lawrenceville.
I know Mt. Washington is near Beltzhoover, which is supposedly a sketchier area, so I was worried about "outsiders" messing around with the property of people who lived in Mt. Washington, but, yes, Lawrenceville proper seems to have some spottier areas where I could run into some issues with property crime. I've already prepared myself to potentially face vandalism, petty theft, criminal mischief, public intoxication, loud neighbors, and other ailments often associated with city living, but I'd like to minimize something more severe, such as car theft. I already know violent crime isn't a pressing issue in either neighborhood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH
(2) The inclines do indeed run in bad weather--I think the number of shutdowns over time has been extremely low, because the technology is really very robust. You can also take the T at the bottom of the Mon Incline over to Steel Plaza if you don't want to do the whole walk over the bridge and through Downtown to the federal building (that is a great walk, but in terrible weather it would be nice to have an alternative). Meanwhile, the bike to Lawrenceville, while doable, is going to be more difficult and less pleasant on a regular basis, and way worse in bad weather. To me this factor is a slam-dunk in favor of Mt. Washington.
I was already thinking Mt. Washington would be better for commuting purposes. The bike ride from Lawrenceville through The Strip to Downtown would indeed be doable but not through the most pleasant of scenery. Thanks for letting me know that the incline runs regardless of weather conditions. My concern would have been how to get down from Grandview Avenue to the Smithfield Street Bridge otherwise, as the incline is the most efficient and direct route.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH
(3) I actually think the gay-friendly issue doesn't particularly point either way. There is going to be a mix of both younger and more progressive types and older and less progressive types in both places, even if the proportions are slightly different. The thing is, it really isn't a Pittsburgh trait to actually say or do anything about what other people are up to, so you just aren't going to notice the people who, if asked, might have some negative things to say aout gay people.
I'm cognizant that some people will never accept people like me, but tolerance IS something I demand. You can't tell by looking at me that I'm "one of them", so to speak, and even now the only ones at my office who know about me are those who have access to my Facebook profile. I was just curious where the higher percentage of those uncomfortable around the LGBT community was between these two neighborhoods, but it seems like it would just be a draw. I want to be judged based upon the type of person I am, not "WHAT" I am, if you catch my drift.
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Originally Posted by BrianTH
(4) There will be plenty of local options to pitch in both places. This is particularly true if you don't get hung up on neighorhood boundaries.
Agreed. I know Mt. Washington and Duquesne Heights (and possibly Beltzhoover) all work together to help improve that part of town, and I'd imagine Lawrenceville works in conjunction with surrounding areas like Bloomfield and The Strip District.
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Originally Posted by BrianTH
(5) The EIT in the City is a flat 3%, and the feds will just take it out of your paycheck.
Thanks. I was unaware it would be automatically deducted from my pay, but that's good to know!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH
(6) Both places have the basic sort of retail you are describing.
It looks like Mt. Washington has a small business district oriented around Shiloh Street and Sycamore Street with Lawrenceville's "main drag" being Butler Street. I'll have to do more research into what businesses are in each. I already know that Piccolo Forno, a restaurant that was recommended to me (but was closed the last time I was in town) is in Lawrenceville.
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Originally Posted by BrianTH
(7) There is going to be more accessible green space in Mt Washington, if that is the sort of run you have in mind.
Thanks. I was thinking Mt. Washington would be better as well for outdoor recreational opportunities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTH
Overall, in my view it is mostly a wash, and either would probably meet your needs. But if you want a walking/biklng commute to the federal building, I think that very clearly makes Mt. Washington your best choice, at least given your concerns and preferences as stated here.
I was already hedging towards Mt. Washington, but if others would like to sway me back towards Lawrenceville, too, then the more opinions the merrier!
I don't know anything about Mt. Washington, but I can tell you a few things about Lawrenceville.
Sure. This is great! So far BrianTH has given me a lot of helpful information about Mt. Washington, and now you'll give me the low-down on Lawrenceville. Everything is welcome!
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Originally Posted by jay5835
I never felt self-conscious about being gay when I lived there. I don't think I broadcast either "gay" or "straight" out of every pore, particularly. However, it's a large neighborhood, and I may have lived on one of the better blocks. I understand the 40s to be the best part of Lawrenceville (I have no proof, nor even anything anectotal), and I lived off 42nd. But I never went exploring.
I'm very clandestine about my sexual orientation in public. I briefly dated a guy in Pittsburgh (some of you may recall my excited "date" thread on this sub-forum back in June or July), but we decided not to pursue one another because he was VERY "out and proud", and I'm much more conservative. He and I both grew up in conservative parts of Pennsylvania. He embraced Pittsburgh as being much more tolerant whereas even being in militantly liberal Northern Virginia now I'm STILL very reserved. His first action when I parked my car near his home in Greenfield was to greet me on the sidewalk by making out with me, as others drove past on the busy road. That immediately made me feel very uncomfortable. I'm most worried about the prospect of me eventually deciding to date when I get to Da 'Burgh and having neighbors/landlords viewing me negatively if they see another guy coming and going on occasion from my place. I put up with a lot of "behind the scenes" back-talking back in Scranton, and while I tolerated that there if I learned about it here I'm now the type of person who would directly confront people about it and make it a huge issue. I'd prefer NOT to have to do that.
The 40's near to Butler look to be the true "meat and potatoes" of Lawrencevile, so anecdotally or not it probably was the best part of the neighborhood.
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Originally Posted by jay5835
Parking was never a problem. In the snow, though, it became very "parking chair." I suppose it matters how close you live to either Butler or Penn.
I actually don't mind a bit of a walk to my car, nor do I mind having someone else parking in my own recently-shoveled spot because, like it or not, nobody officially "owns" the spot in front of their homes. I was most concerned if you had to pay for a permit to park on-street in either neighborhood, and, if so, how much?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jay5835
It's two miles exactly from 1000 Liberty Avenue to the intersection of Penn Ave and Butler Street, which is the very beginning of Lawrenceville. If you continue along Butler, the hill is to your right, and you have to walk up it. If you take Penn Avenue, the hill is on your left, and you can walk down it. Here's a map: Google Maps
As I replied to BrianTH I think the commute from Mt. Washington would definitely be preferable to that of Lawrenceville, especially since I'd prefer to walk. If I'm near Grandview, time the incline right, and then walk across the bridge at a brisk pace I could probably be at work in just 20 minutes. That would probably be more like 40 minutes from most parts of Lawrenceville. I'm unfamiliar with the Federal Building, but I'm guessing parking is probably at a nearby garage, and it's probably at a price, so I'd rather just walk/bike to avoid that hassle (preference for walking since I may or may not be lugging a laptop with me).
Quote:
Originally Posted by jay5835
Given that you're a runner, and considerably younger than I, you may not find walking up the hill all that awful (you may even prefer walking, or running, up the hill). But it's something to at least consider if you're walking to and from L'ville every day. I lived almost exactly mid-hill, so I used to walk down to Butler when I went out, and came home via Penn so I could walk down the hill again, whenever possible. This hilly part lasts at least until the cemetery (45th Street), but I don't know about anything beyond that.
I actually do very well walking/running uphill and downhill, so the topography of either neighborhood doesn't really concern me. However, I am a scaredy-cat about driving down steep hills during inclement weather, especially if there's a stop sign at the bottom!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jay5835
There's a Shop 'n' Save in L'ville, at 450 56th St (Butler Street/55th-56th Streets): Google Maps. I used to shop in the Strip District, though. I like that kind of shopping better than going to a supermarket, and it's so close. You'd be walking through twice a day, so you might like that, too. Go to 21st St. and Penn Avenue on the map to see the main intersection in the strip. There's another supermarket, kind of downscale, at the corner of Liberty Ave and Main Street, in Bloomfield about a block from L'ville. Currently, it's called Shur Sav.
Actually this makes the walk from Lawrenceville to Downtown more attractive because I could shop for groceries and other needs on my way home through The Strip. I never even considered that.
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Originally Posted by jay5835
L'ville has its own library branch, at 279 Fisk Street, zipcode 15201.
Thanks. I believe Mt. Washington has a library, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jay5835
I think I've answered as much as I can, but if anything else occurs to me, I'll let you know.
I really appreciate it! Enjoy your rep points, and if you (or someone else) could rep BrianTH I'd be grateful. It won't let me.
Just to put in my 2¢. I live at the border of Bloomfield and lawrenceville (near penn and main). I work downtown (Gateway Ctr) and I try to walk it most days. It's good exercise and takes about an hour.
Public Transit is excellent though, and usually at least one day a week I decide to take the bus instead.
Well, I'm still undecided. Mt. Washington has the edge for me in terms of a nice view, shorter commute, and this trail plan that I recently discovered: Emerald View Park Trails | MWCDC Pittsburgh, PA (http://www.mwcdc.org/projects/grandtrails.htm - broken link)
However, most of my Pittsburgh friends currently live in the East End (Shadyside, Squirrel Hill, and Greenfield), so Lawrenceville puts me closer to them while Mt. Washington is a bit of a hike.
I still love both! I think ultimately I'm going to need to spend a while in each neighborhood. I may in the end just have to pick the neighborhood where the best rental option is for me.
Just to give some balance to my comments above, in terms of retail and nighlife and such, I thnk there is more overall going on in Lawrenceville, and it is very convenient for getting to the Strip and Bloomfield, and not bad for the rest of the East End. As noted above it is easier to get from Mt Washington to Downtown, and Station Square is at the base, but there is then a gap before you get over to the South Side, and of course it is much farther from the East End.
Edit: I just saw your comment about the location of your friends. That is a significant consideration--although it wouldn't make much difference if you were actually going to Greenfield or Squirrel Hill, odds are a lot of the places you would be going out would favor Lawrenceville. Unedit.
Of course in truth it isn't very hard to get from either of these places to anywhere else in the City--Pittsburgh just isn't that big. But although you didn't list this as a concern here, I do think Lawrenceville is a little more plugged into the local action.
That being said, I would absolutely love to have that commute from Mt Washington, and in general I think it is an underrated neighborhood. Assuming you are renting, I think it would be a great idea to start there--you can always move if you find yourself spending a lot of time somewhere else.
However, most of my Pittsburgh friends currently live in the East End (Shadyside, Squirrel Hill, and Greenfield), so Lawrenceville puts me closer to them while Mt. Washington is a bit of a hike.
I lived in Mt. Washington for 6 years, while most of my friends lived in the East End as well. The distance never really bothered me. Mt. Washington is a really easy neighborhood to get to and from.
I posed this same question on Facebook, and so far Mt. Washington is the victor.
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