Future Pittsburgh T Lines (Wilkinsburg, Washington: to rent, hotel, college)

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by bradjl2009

I heard that someday they wanted to extend the North Shore connector across the Ohio and to take it to the airport but I may be wrong too.

That has been said and even briefly studied, but I think it should be noted that is total nonsense (it makes no sense to start on the wrong side of the Ohio when the T is already on the right side of the Ohio at Station Square), and very likely was offered as an idea just to rationalize taking the T extension down the North Shore instead of into the North Side.

[gg]

We need more 279's and Route 28's so people can live in the burbs, have good schools and commute.

[pman]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Due to Monument Hill being in the way by the time you are at the North Side stop, I think the second plan (diverting north after the river for a straight run to Federal) makes more sense.

i like that plan myself and i think the stops make more sense as well

[Anonymous939630]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

That has been said and even briefly studied, but I think it should be noted that is total nonsense (it makes no sense to start on the wrong side of the Ohio when the T is already on the right side of the Ohio at Station Square), and very likely was offered as an idea just to rationalize taking the T extension down the North Shore instead of into the North Side.

I'll have to disagree with you here -- between where the T currently come out of the Transit Tunnel, I see no way for it to bypass Station Square or Carson St., or for that matter a spur from South Hills Jctn. The terrain is extremely challenging to negotiate. Also, where the NSC comes out from the ground, it would theoretically be possible to add a rail component to the West End Bridge. So not completely out of the question IMHO.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by jmrun1126

I'll have to disagree with you here -- between where the T currently come out of the Transit Tunnel, I see no way for it to bypass Station Square or Carson St., or for that matter a spur from South Hills Jctn.

They would likely use the shelf above Carson with the train tracks--in fact they studied that for the original West Busway plan, and as a bonus you could actually finish that plan (operating the West Busway on the same ROW).

Also, where the NSC comes out from the ground, it would theoretically be possible to add a rail component to the West End Bridge. So not completely out of the question IMHO.

They looked at a couple different ways to cross back over the Ohio. All of them are prohibitively expensive. To be fair, going from Station Square would also be very expensive, but that is sort of the point--the NSC hasn't actually made getting the T to the airport any easier.

[WestLibertyAve]

Originally Posted by jmrun1126

I'll have to disagree with you here -- between where the T currently come out of the Transit Tunnel, I see no way for it to bypass Station Square or Carson St., or for that matter a spur from South Hills Jctn. The terrain is extremely challenging to negotiate. Also, where the NSC comes out from the ground, it would theoretically be possible to add a rail component to the West End Bridge. So not completely out of the question IMHO.

There's actually an abandoned railbed (the Wabash?) that runs along a portion of the Saw Mill Run valley. It's pretty easy to spot on Google Earth, starting around Woodruff Street to the West End. The line would have to run high along the hillside above 51, as the Blue Line does now, but it could be done.

[Impala26]

I think it's a bit of a pitfall (pun somewhat intended) to assume that mass transit planning in Pittsburgh should be predicated around expanding the "T" network specifically. I mean, sure, I'd love it if the T went to all reaches of Allegheny County, but let's face it, that likely won't be happening within the current century. This is due almost completely to the prohibitive cost. Therefore, I think it would be prudent to try to be frugal/practical/workable and take stock of what we already have here in the Pittsburgh area in planning mass transit.

Let me lay out a few workable options that would greatly improve transit in our area:

Alternatives to the Spine Line: The Bus Rapid Transit model does in fact work well in other cities. However, in order to be truly successful it would have to emulate the level of service provided by a light rail line. Stations (not stops), off-vehicle payment, real-time arrival times, traffic signal priority, and rail-like vehicles would all be a necessity to me in order to be consider a true rival to the service provided by a T light rail line. In terms of layout, I think you could attempt another contra-flow lane on Forbes and have the one on Fifth extended all the way to Sixth Ave. downtown. This would then be a reverse-loop for buses on Fifth and Forbes (and Fifth and Sixth Aves. Downtown) bounded by Liberty in Downtown and Bellefield in Oakland. Using Bellefield, the rapid-buses would diverge in according to how roughly the 61 and 71 bus routes go, but likely with some slight changes to routings and upgrades and consolidations of stops into stations.

Also, a streetcar loop connecting Downtown-Strip-Lawrenceville-Bloomfield-Oakland-Hill/Uptown. Alignment up for debate, but I think it would be important to allow it to have its own right-of-way where possible, possibly via claiming secondary streets or former ROW's. Future extensions of this system could be along the Baum-Centre corridor or to the South Side via the Birmingham Bridge.

Busway Connectivity Downtown:Personally, I think a great way to make transit more efficient in Downtown would be to convert/tweak the underground portions of the T to accommodate for buses. Entrances to the system would be via the Panhandle Bridge/Station Square, Penn Station Spur Line, and North Shore Connector with a potential newly constructed access point connecting Steel Plaza with points directly east. By doing this (assuming the West Busway is extended the way it was originally intended all the way to Station Square), the Busway and T system would operate very efficiently as one interconnected network utilizing the same stations downtown to accommodate easy transfers. The East, West, and South busways could be made to join (and function) as one complete line. With a new east-bound Steel Plaza entrance a new East End rapid bus line could also fit seamlessly into this system.

Using Aerial Gondolas and/or Inclines to "Fill in Gaps": Connect Oakland to the South Side, or the Hill to Downtown, Oakland, and/or the Strip, or the South Side Flats to the Slopes and other adjacent neighborhoods. In general, using these modes of transit to connect disparate neighborhoods and business districts as well as connecting modes that run parallel to each other but aren't otherwise easy to connect/cross with each other due to a river or topography.

Here are other ideas in no particular order:

*Extend the East Busway to Monroeville via Braddock and Turtle Creek

*Add a Bloomfield area East Busway stop

*North Side and South Side Streetcar loops linked at least at one point to a nearby or shared T stop.

*Commuter (Diesel Light) Rail along existing rail lines along the Allegheny, Monongahela and Ohio River Valleys

*Link Above Commuter Rail lines with existing T network

*A North-South Diesel Light Rail line in the East End along Junction Hollow connecting Hazelwood through Oakland and Lawrenceville to Millvale

*Improve park-and-ride options by making only a few select lines, but are well-served with copious amounts of parking. (This would apply for buses, the T, and newer commuter lines)

[pman]

Originally Posted by Impala26

Alternatives to the Spine Line: The Bus Rapid Transit model does in fact work well in other cities. However, in order to be truly successful it would have to emulate the level of service provided by a light rail line. Stations (not stops), off-vehicle payment, real-time arrival times, traffic signal priority, and rail-like vehicles would all be a necessity to me in order to be consider a true rival to the service provided by a T light rail line. In terms of layout,

I actually think a T extension would be superior to a bus option for a couple of reasons. first, vehicles would be capable of carrying more people and have lower operating costs. second, well, the tunnel is built, so it makes a lot of sense to run a high frequency, high capacity service into the tunnel where needed (spine line). the t to the airport is unnecessary though. remember, there are advantages to rail based systems...the problem is often that people want rail regardless of whether it's needed.

Originally Posted by Impala26

Busway Connectivity Downtown:Personally, I think a great way to make transit more efficient in Downtown would be to convert/tweak the underground portions of the T to accommodate for buses. ... The East, West, and South busways could be made to join (and function) as one complete line. With a new east-bound Steel Plaza entrance a new East End rapid bus line could also fit seamlessly into this system.

is it possible or would routes have to be electrified? running a brt system into the tunnel would be advantageous.

Originally Posted by Impala26

*Add a Bloomfield area East Busway stop

*North Side and South Side Streetcar loops linked at least at one point to a nearby or shared T stop.
*A North-South Diesel Light Rail line in the East End along Junction Hollow connecting Hazelwood through Oakland and Lawrenceville to Millvale

I think a t extension into the north side would be more effective and it runs to the east end, all the better. I often wonder why there isn't a busway stop for bloomfield now. fwiw, if service on the east busway were electrified you could add stops without losing time. I often wonder whether rising diesel prices and falling electric prices has started to change this dynamic.

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by pman

I actually think a T extension would be superior to a bus option for a couple of reasons. first, vehicles would be capable of carrying more people and have lower operating costs. second, well, the tunnel is built, so it makes a lot of sense to run a high frequency, high capacity service into the tunnel where needed (spine line). the t to the airport is unnecessary though. remember, there are advantages to rail based systems...the problem is often that people want rail regardless of whether it's needed.

Not sure how to define "necessary" in terms of rail, but here in Atlanta, having a fast rail line to the airport is really really nice. Rail trains are larger and more comfortable than buses. A line that is semi-express from the airport to downtown and up to at least Oakland would be helpful to Pittsburgh's business, education, and convention sectors. It could be semi-express by going from the airport down to say Coraopolis and make a bee-line for downtown by following those rail lines into downtown.

For quality river life, it sucks that those rail lines are along the Ohio ruining river access...but there they are.

[pman]

Originally Posted by MathmanMathman

Not sure how to define "necessary" in terms of rail, but here in Atlanta, having a fast rail line to the airport is really really nice. Rail trains are larger and more comfortable than buses. A line that is semi-express from the airport to downtown and up to at least Oakland would be helpful to Pittsburgh's business, education, and convention sectors. It could be semi-express by going from the airport down to say Coraopolis and make a bee-line for downtown by following those rail lines into downtown.

For quality river life, it sucks that those rail lines are along the Ohio ruining river access...but there they are.

well..you could define it by ridership. buses are probably more than adequate for pit...they can be buses with luggage racks but theres little real advantage to a rail based connection for such a low volume route. the spine libe, otoh, is projected to have extremely high ridership thus indicating its utility. its not that there should never be an airpoet line but its far less necessary. rail connections are often window dressing. pittsburgh has a strange knack for getting projects done despite pop loss but never gettibg the core projects done. the spine line is aptly named since it would be the backbone of the transit system