Extending the T (Pittsburgh, Wilkinsburg, Washington: sales, transfer, sales tax)

[Evergrey]

Originally Posted by ferrarisnowday

I don't think either of those things are true. The East End is very densely packed and it is also filled with big money players, even if per-capita income is less.

Correct. The East End of the City of Pittsburgh is easily the most densely populated "region" in the area. The only way you could get a North Hills population to surpass that is by cobbling together hundreds of square miles of low-density automobile-only exurbia where rail transit would be wholly inappropriate. The East End is also home to many rich, powerful and politically-connected folks.

[ML North]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I suppose it makes sense if you hope that by expanding the T to be useful for wealthy suburbanites, you'll increase their political support for later expansions, even if they don't directly benefit from them.

Well, right, but I'm hoping that at this stage in the game there is discussion -- at least among the consultants -- of the actual merits of the project.

And of course no one could have known this due to the brevity of my first post, but I was kind of commenting on the PG plan.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

Correct. The East End of the City of Pittsburgh is easily the most densely populated "region" in the area. The only way you could get a North Hills population to surpass that is by cobbling together hundreds of square miles of low-density automobile-only exurbia where rail transit would be wholly inappropriate. The East End is also home to many rich, powerful and politically-connected folks.

Look at how many people accept the CW that "the busway serves the East End fine" though, even on this forum.

Personally, I think a T extension to Oakland should be the priority. The busway makes it easy to get to Oakland quickly from Shadyside and points east, but not from Downtown, and a huge number of buses travel between Downtown and Oakland. It might have knockoff effects causing more students to consider living in places where T stops are nearby as well (such as Beechview) which would be great for neglected parts of the city.

[Clint.]

Well, when someone submits an outline of planned rail expansion into Oakland or the East End to the PG and gets published, and the County Executive decides to meet with engineers and says how great it would be to build out to the East End and Oakland, then I guess we'll know for sure that's the funding and political priority area and not the North Hills. Because at this point there seems to be zero interest from anyone who matters about building any transit out that way other than some new bus stops.

Of course, county executives have met with planners before to discuss building out to Oakland, so who knows what will happen one day. This stuff has been talked about for decades.

[pman]

Originally Posted by ferrarisnowday

I see what you mean. A stop at Federal & North before hitting the highway would be better than an East Allegheny Stop, but the whole idea of running along 279 is still pretty bad. I'm not sure what the route of the old federal st. trolley is, but it would probably work well. You could extend north up Federal and Perrysville into Ross, Westview, and McCandless. You'd at least have some walkable stops along much of that route.

I'd really like to see the T extend along the Ohio. Allegheny Station already terminates with the track oriented in that direction, so you wouldn't have to do any sort of loop-back east like the PG's proposal. Just extend it along Chateau into California and extend from Manchester all the way to Sewickley. Most of the stops along that route would be walkable and it would be pretty similar to the South Hill's T with the business districts it would run near. The biggest downside to this route is that it misses Federal and North, but that could easily be added as spur from PNC Park - Federal & North - Brighton & North - Reconnect with the main extension at Chateau.

sorry, fineview trolley was what it was called, brain fart. here's a map
even extending from the current allegheny station you could have it stop at north (though nowhere near federal). Perhaps the city should look at your suggestion and break out the expense by station and build it
one piece at a time first north, then columbus, etc. the expensive piece (the tunnel has been built)

[ferraris]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I suppose it makes sense if you hope that by expanding the T to be useful for wealthy suburbanites, you'll increase their political support for later expansions, even if they don't directly benefit from them.


One thing I don't understand is in all of these designs, it seems Allegheny station ends up a tiny spur. Even if it's a PITA, wouldn't it be better to loop it back around again? Or are there still hopes for that to be the first stop on a line out to the airport?

This is part of why I like an extension along the Ohio. Allegheny Station's track is already facing that way and you still hit some wealthy suburanites, but you're creating a new usable corridor instead of basically laying tracks on the HOV lane. You also hit some areas in the city that could use the boost.

Originally Posted by eschaton

Look at how many people accept the CW that "the busway serves the East End fine" though, even on this forum.

Personally, I think a T extension to Oakland should be the priority. The busway makes it easy to get to Oakland quickly from Shadyside and points east, but not from Downtown, and a huge number of buses travel between Downtown and Oakland. It might have knockoff effects causing more students to consider living in places where T stops are nearby as well (such as Beechview) which would be great for neglected parts of the city.

I'm sorry, even with some quick googling I still don't know what "CW" means? I could support an eastern expansion of the T, but not one that simply adds tracks to the busway. I do like the current bus system between downtown and Oakland though, aside from the lack of a dedicated bus lane along the entire route. During rush hour you're hard pressed to wait more than 3 or 4 minutes for a bus; I'd worry that rail expansion may carry more people but come less frequently.

I don't think there are very many neglected areas along the existing T line. No doubt they would benefit from being connected to Oakland, but most places along the T are pretty nice as-is. Beechview and the southern bit of Mt. Washington are the only two I can think of that could use a little love and might also attract students. If anything I'd expect students to try to cram into Dormont primarily.

Originally Posted by pman

sorry, fineview trolley was what it was called, brain fart. here's a map
even extending from the current allegheny station you could have it stop at north (though nowhere near federal). Perhaps the city should look at your suggestion and break out the expense by station and build it one piece at a time first north, then columbus, etc. the expensive piece (the tunnel has been built)

Ahh, I have heard of the Fineview trolley. It's a great example to show that the hills and curves aren't an insurmountable obstacle to rail. I don't think going into Fineview makes much sense, but running along the edge of the neighborhood on Federal and Perrysville does.

Perhaps the city should look at your suggestion and break out the expense by station and build it one piece at a time first north, then columbus, etc. the expensive piece (the tunnel has been built)

This would be awesome. I wonder if it's low enough cost that the city or county could realistically fund alone. Once you get the car back to street level it wouldn't be too expensive I'd think.

[Clint.]

Originally Posted by ferrarisnowday

This is part of why I like an extension along the Ohio. Allegheny Station's track is already facing that way and you still hit some wealthy suburanites, but you're creating a new usable corridor instead of basically laying tracks on the HOV lane. You also hit some areas in the city that could use the boost.

Much better than following 279. It would be more appreciated by the residents there.

[pman]

sewickley is also on what might be a potential rail corridor, say, new castle with stops in sewickley, beaver, etc.
what's funny (or not) is that current alignment from the north shore through downtown makes the most sense if the route runs along the busway (or liberty) which would eliminate a lot of the turns. if you were designing a line to run from allegheny station to oakland you'd want it to run under forbes from gateway station which would be more direct, less curves, and thus faster trip times. the actual T is just cobbled together from various pieces. there isn't any compelling reason why the south hills T even needs t use a tunnel downtown, it's more straightforward to just come in by smithfield the way it used to. the tunnel it uses was a PRR tunnel connecting penn station with PLE (and on to steubenville). nutty.
anyway, the city doesn't have much money and there are many needs. I'd probably develop an incremental program, one stop to north st, an at grade but dedicated right of way forbes trolley (perhaps $200-250 million?), and some matching grant money for AVRR and working with the state to improve intercity service which might be able to serve the westmoreland market well.

[captainmidnight]

The segment to Oakland was/is part of "The Spine Line" system which dates back to the 1960's and possibly earlier. Here is lots of information: The Spine Line

This 2006 report estimated an underground line to Oakland at $1.5 billion ($1.7 billion in today's money) and $2.5/2.7 billion to Wilkinsburg (and thus, a pretty easy connection to the East Busway): http://www.spcregion.org/ECTS/pdf/ta...l%20Report.pdf

Remember that the North Shore Connector used quite a bit of federal money and the same would have to happen for a line to Oakland. Locally there isn't much money and Pennsylvania is trying to figure out how to come up with money to maintain our existing infrastructure but it would be great to have more funding for transit capital projects such as the Oakland line.

[ML North]

Originally Posted by bmantz65

The segment to Oakland was/is part of "The Spine Line" system which dates back to the 1960's and possibly earlier. Here is lots of information: The Spine Line

This 2006 report estimated an underground line to Oakland at $1.5 billion ($1.7 billion in today's money) and $2.5/2.7 billion to Wilkinsburg (and thus, a pretty easy connection to the East Busway): http://www.spcregion.org/ECTS/pdf/ta...l%20Report.pdf

Remember that the North Shore Connector used quite a bit of federal money and the same would have to happen for a line to Oakland. Locally there isn't much money and Pennsylvania is trying to figure out how to come up with money to maintain our existing infrastructure but it would be great to have more funding for transit capital projects such as the Oakland line.

This has been posted a bunch of times, but it's a relevant history of the Spine Line: Lost Tracks | Features | Pittsburgh City Paper