Can we please stop recommending Pittsburgh's suburbs? (Fox Chapel, Etna: house, to buy)

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by speagles84

Although I 50% agree with the OP (the post I believe he was referring to was the guy moving from Texas and the suggestions that the suburbs have as much nightlife/young people is just ignorant), not everyone on this site is looking for a walk-able suburb, Eschaton. Some people like living on a half acre lot, with a driveway/detached garage and room for a pool/deck/whatever. Some people enjoy driving a car to work versus walking or taking transit.

Personally, I wish I could take the train to work and only use a car sparingly. But I can't due to the location of my job. But I live in a very walk-able neighborhood in the city and enjoy being able to walk or bike to everything else but work.

I could also see myself in ten years living outside the city in a more suburban setting. But I'm going to cross that bridge when I get to it.

Different strokes for different folks.

Again, I know I'm not a suburban person, so maybe I'm not the kind of person who should be judging what makes the suburbs in one portion of the country superior to another. But I wasn't arguing "teh suburbs suck!" I was saying I don't see what in particular is so great about Pittsburgh suburbs that you can't get anywhere else - that I just don't see the point in someone relocating here if they are going to live a suburban-focused life (unless it's to escape from higher-cost areas like the Northeast Corridor but to not move too far afield).

Some perspective from people who relocated from suburbs from another portion of the country to here (or vice versa) would be enlightening.

[Rocket88]

As was pointed out, a lot of suburban areas of other older northern cities like Cleveland, Philly, Chicago have Main Streets. This as was pointed out, has a lot to do with topography as those cities are pretty flat for the most part. In Western PA, where are most of the Main Streets/business districts of satellite communities? They are along the river. Sure, there are exceptions like Mt. Lebanon etc, but for the most part the business are in the river valleys. People live in those valleys and up the hillsides which leads out into he suburbs then the country.
Fox Chapel and O'Hara do not have Main Streets, but down in the river valley there is Sharsburg, Aspinwall and Blawnox. Not all are stellar. That is the same anywhere. They are still business districts.
Plum and Penn Hills? There is Verona and Oakmont in the valley.
Sewickley Heights? The town of Sewickley down below.
Shaler? Etna and Millvale in the Valley.
and so on...

So no, there are not a lot of ton of walkable business districts cutting right through the burbs. You sometimes have to get in your car and drive down to the valley that serves them.

[Craziaskowboi]

Originally Posted by eschaton

No, I really don't think that's the case at all.

For example, one could argue from a suburban perspective, Cleveland is a better city than Pittsburgh. It surely has a more active nightlife, the stadiums are right in Downtown (rather than across the river) and it has much more ample parking.

That said, a lot more of Cleveland looks like a dumpster fire than Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh has nothing like Eastside - one side of town which is overwhelmingly black and impoverished barring a few neighborhoods. The traditionally working-class white west side of town is mostly in slow decline as well. Crime in Cleveland is significantly higher. Cleveland outshines Pittsburgh actually in having more top-notch walkable suburbs, like Lakewood and Shaker Heights.

So yes, if someone just wanted to drive into town to use some amenities, I'd suggest maybe Cleveland would be a better fit. Pittsburgh is a better city because we have strong neighborhoods like Squirrel Hill, Shadyside, South Side, and Lawrenceville. Our suburbs don't really bring much to the table, except for a few notable exceptions, like Mount Lebanon.

From what I've observed, Cleveland is a tale of two cities separated by the Cuyahoga River. East of the river (not including downtown) is a vast expanse of blight and decay. West of the river is more stable, with neighborhoods closer to downtown gentrifying, and neighborhoods farther from downtown stagnating but not necessarily decaying. Ironically, despite the city proper being a hellhole east of the Cuyahoga River, its eastern suburbs happen to be its nicest and wealthiest.

To put it another way, the city of Pittsburgh doesn't have nearly the extent of blight that the city of Cleveland does, but nor does it have nearly the extent of walkable rich suburbs that Cleveland has. Basically, if all the South Hills and West End neighborhoods in the city were like Beltzhoover, and all the suburbs from Carnegie and Crafton to West Mifflin were like Mt. Lebanon, then you'd have something like the relationship between the city of Cleveland's eastern neighborhoods and its eastern suburbs.

Also interesting to note is that Cleveland's western suburbs are a mixed bag despite the city's western neighborhoods being in decent shape. Areas along Lake Erie are still pretty nice, but many of the inland western suburbs have seen better days, and a lot of the suburban sprawl in Medina County is the result of people moving out of Lorain County and western Cuyahoga County.

In the suburbs of Cleveland, Cuyahoga Falls National Park seems to be sort of a dividing line. The suburbs to the east from Hudson north to Cleveland heights are wealthy, and the suburbs to the west from Parma west to Lorain are working-class or middle-class. Also ironic is that the eastern suburbs near Lake Erie are more working-class compared to the wealthier suburbs inland.

One challenge the city of Cleveland faces is bridging the gap between downtown and University Circle, which is located on the far eastern border of the city. The Cleveland Clinic is a tremendous asset for the city, and so is Case Western Reserve University, but between them and downtown Cleveland is miles of blight and decay. Even areas near Cleveland State University are in bad shape. It's ironic that the first city neighborhoods in Cleveland to gentrify are those farthest away from the universities and the Cleveland Clinic.

[jay5835]

Originally Posted by tyovan4

The home I had in Shaler Township was perfect.

Nice home, close but not too close to my neighbors, a yard that wasnt hard to maintain but was large and private enough to enjoy with my son, quiet cul-de-sac where neighborhood kids could ride bikes and play basketball, undeveloped lot across the street that was home to a family of deer, easy access to Giant Eagle or McKnight Road.

Blissful suburbia. Yet, we could see the Steel Tower and Cathedral of Learning out of our windows. I could sit on my roof on the Fourth of July for a great view of the fireworks shows in the city. We could be downtown in 20 minutes via 279.

I truly miss that bliss very deeply.

Why did you move?

[Merge]

Originally Posted by Craziaskowboi

From what I've observed, Cleveland is a tale of two cities separated by the Cuyahoga River. East of the river (not including downtown) is a vast expanse of blight and decay. West of the river is more stable, with neighborhoods closer to downtown gentrifying, and neighborhoods farther from downtown stagnating but not necessarily decaying. Ironically, despite the city proper being a hellhole east of the Cuyahoga River, its eastern suburbs happen to be its nicest and wealthiest.

To put it another way, the city of Pittsburgh doesn't have nearly the extent of blight that the city of Cleveland does, but nor does it have nearly the extent of walkable rich suburbs that Cleveland has. Basically, if all the South Hills and West End neighborhoods in the city were like Beltzhoover, and all the suburbs from Carnegie and Crafton to West Mifflin were like Mt. Lebanon, then you'd have something like the relationship between the city of Cleveland's eastern neighborhoods and its eastern suburbs.

Also interesting to note is that Cleveland's western suburbs are a mixed bag despite the city's western neighborhoods being in decent shape. Areas along Lake Erie are still pretty nice, but many of the inland western suburbs have seen better days, and a lot of the suburban sprawl in Medina County is the result of people moving out of Lorain County and western Cuyahoga County.

In the suburbs of Cleveland, Cuyahoga Falls National Park seems to be sort of a dividing line. The suburbs to the east from Hudson north to Cleveland heights are wealthy, and the suburbs to the west from Parma west to Lorain are working-class or middle-class. Also ironic is that the eastern suburbs near Lake Erie are more working-class compared to the wealthier suburbs inland.

One challenge the city of Cleveland faces is bridging the gap between downtown and University Circle, which is located on the far eastern border of the city. The Cleveland Clinic is a tremendous asset for the city, and so is Case Western Reserve University, but between them and downtown Cleveland is miles of blight and decay. Even areas near Cleveland State University are in bad shape. It's ironic that the first city neighborhoods in Cleveland to gentrify are those farthest away from the universities and the Cleveland Clinic.

That's a very detailed, informative post.. I'd just like to point out that Asiatown (the western part of Goodrich/Kirtland) is beginning to bridge that gap in the east side from the west and there is a nascent development beginning on the eastern end of that gap between downtown and UC. Hough has the clinic, as you said... and most of the blight in the Eastern part of that neighborhood has been demolished.

Funny you didn't mention a couple of the really rather miserable suburbs east of Cleveland too much... East Cleveland seems to be forcing development on the east side toward downtown , and that development in turn appears to be nibbling away at Buckeye, Southern Glenville and Hough .

[JoeP]

I largely agree on the poor housing stock for the city.

Here's the thing, Pittsburgh was pretty big so to speak when looking back to the 1940s. It was a top 10 metro with about 2.4 million people at a time when most metros were below a million people.

People consider many areas suburbs now that weren't suburbs then - they were industrial towns up and down the rivers, including places like Mckees Rocks.

And the built environment of actual suburbs is much older too - a lot of the South hills is 1950s at the newest for the part. They are not big homes on big lots.

Because growth stopped so dramatically, you really only see pockets of newer development in these areas.
As you go further out, you go from 50, 60 year old homes to suddenly newer ones.

It's a very disproportionate ratio.

As for Cleveland's burbs being nicer, I would largely agree. However, Cleveland does have significant economic extremes. Pittsburgh overall doesn't appear to be as "rich" as other metros, but does seem to be less extreme.

[steelers1523]

Its annoying when people suggest suburbs to young professionals looking to move to Pittsburgh. Its not the 70s-80s any more, you cannot drink and drive. Most young people enjoy socializing which is practically impossible in the suburbs, unless you were born and raised there or have school age children.

[guy2073]

Why do you have to drink and drive to socialize?

[steelers1523]

Originally Posted by guy2073

Why do you have to drink and drive to socialize?

Face it most people in their twentys socialize around bars. If you live in the suburbs good luck finding young people to hang out with. I'm not promoting anything just putting the truth out there.

And no you don't have to drink to have fun, obviously. But I'm being real.

[gladhands]

Originally Posted by JoeP

People consider many areas suburbs now that weren't suburbs then - they were industrial towns up and down the rivers, including places like Mckees Rocks.

This is something I hadn't considered, but you're absolutely right. I completely overlooked the mill town angle.

The other thing is that the roads are absolutely terrible. The most of them look like they haven't seen any improvement since the 60s. Some of the nicer suburbs feel woefully underdeveloped, verging on rural. Take Fox Chapel for example: dark, windy country roads without shoulder or sidewalk. It feels like being out in the country.