PAT looking to reduce bus stops (Atlantic: 2015, transfer, subsidized)

[Faer]

Originally Posted by eschaton

The problem is all of these turns cannot be right handed. If buses travel clockwise around Downtown, then the three main turns could be rights turns. But the turn in (and more importantly out) will be left. Or you could have the buses travel counter-clockwise. In that case the turn in and out will be right, but the three main turns will all be lefts.

This is really not much different than the current situation though, at least for most routes. Coming from the South/West = a left turn inbound. Same off the East Busway, etc. There are other benefits, however, of creating consolidated routes, wherever you place them, in that you can focus transit improvements in more concentrated areas - think intersection reconfigurations (I swear the biggest bottleneck for buses is cars blocking turns), creating preboard paystations, adding turnouts, creating more dedicated bus lines, etc. The system is too scattershot downtown to do any of that to the necessary extent right now. Sure left turns are less than ideal, but that's just another hurdle to clear. Right turns onto narrow streets aren't much better to be honest. In addition, being able to make transferring downtown less difficult a process, in addition to possible shaving a couple minutes of the travel time through down would have some value. Of course, I still think the best things we could do would be some modest/large infrastructure improvements, namely extend the east busway to steel city via underground station (see Denver) and finally building a wabash busway bridge.

[Enough_Already]

Originally Posted by MountainDewGuy

If cars didn't gridlock and they stopped at the white lines at lights, then busses would have very limited issues making those tight turns.

Most of the time one bus takes entire cycle of a light just is allow passengers to enter and exit. Then more cars enter that street and maybe another bus or two. Two cars and one bus can take up most of a block downtown. Why can't people walk a couple blocks? If you want to know why healthcare is expensive in the US...

[Enough_Already]

Originally Posted by eschaton

A plan to have the buses loop through the edge of downtown and to eliminate left hand turns has been bandied about for years now, I think it's unworkable however.

Let's imagine, for the sake of argument, a the buses traveled through Downtown only on three streets: Liberty, Grant, and Boulevard of the Allies. Most buses would also need to make another turn to get onto the loop (say from Fifth or from the Roberto Clemente Bridge, for example). Thus you'd need at maximum five turns within downtown - one onto the loop, three to go around the loop, and one to get back out of downtown again. Anyone downtown could walk two blocks and reach a bus stop for their particular route.

The problem is all of these turns cannot be right handed. If buses travel clockwise around Downtown, then the three main turns could be rights turns. But the turn in (and more importantly out) will be left. Or you could have the buses travel counter-clockwise. In that case the turn in and out will be right, but the three main turns will all be lefts.

This is a problem which could be handled by adjusting light etc. It would definitely reduce the problem on every other street. Why not try it? It cannot be any worse.

[Mr.BadGuy]

Originally Posted by Xammy

Not that unrealistic, really. Lots of European cities (including the one I live in) have large parts of the city center car free. Public transit can go through in areas and there are driving streets but also large sections that are only by foot / bike. It's really great, tbh.

NYC has this too, particularly around our central business districts. It's very convenient for navigating around tourists during the height of the season (i.e. NOW!). I love it. Unfortunately, another thing you need to develop car-free swaths of streets is a tax base to pay for it. If your tax base is too small or your state legislature too unwilling to allocate to your city what its residents provided through hard work, you're a bit screwed. In the majority of U.S. states, though the large urban cores function as the chief tax bases (something Pittsburghers know well), the rural and exurban areas get allocated a larger share of that tax base relative to what they contribute. You can see this tension writ large on a national level when you examine how much states get back vs. how much they give in tax dollars.

Originally Posted by SteelCityRising

Fair enough. I suppose this could conceivably work here in Downtown Pittsburgh, too. We'd just have to start issuing mopeds/Vespas/scooters to our delivery drivers, almost all of whom currently drive cars or vans.

I thought you worked a swanky office gig now? Hope all is well.

We just got Postmates on top of all our other delivery franchises, plus some of the small mom and pops have their own delivery crew, like the 24/7 hamburger/Greek food/breakfast specials joint caddy corner from my apartment building. It's handy and allows the delivery food in Queens/Brooklyn to range from "average" to "cheap as hell" because it allows the managers to cut out a whole lot of cost from the transaction.

Sadly, it's also only feasible in areas where the residential density and sales volume are both high enough to hire good people at a fair wage. I don't wager you for someone who'd like to be stiffed on his hourly rate and tips.

Originally Posted by Blackbeauty212

While progressives would be intrigued by the idea (would have to see exactly how it would work), the typical Yinzer WILL NEVER GO For it.

The typical malcontent festering in misery of his own design, however, is just FULL of ideas!

[PghYinzer]

I think some additional education around the purpose of the “Stop Here On Red” sign for drivers could make a difference. My bus almost always encounters a car that doesn’t understand why they sign is posted at Wood and Ft. Pitt. The bus can’t make the turn, the first car tries to back up, but there is already a line of cars behind them. It is beyond aggravating, and I am all for the public shaming of these individuals. Also, people walking on the “Do Not Walk” signal at the corner of Fifth and Wood is a huge issue. Cars and buses can’t make turns because they have to wait on people crossing when they shouldn’t. Basic understanding of traffic laws could go a long way however I am all for moving buses to the edges of town, and heck removing cars too.

[ferraris]

Buses might cause more traffic than a single car, but they don't cause more traffic than the alternative of everybody driving. There would be at least twice as many cars downtown without buses. One regular bus full of people could equate to 40 cars.

[gg]

Originally Posted by Xammy

Is Yinzers a name for people from Pittsburgh? I wondered what you all call yourselves. Pittsburgians? Pittsburgers?

It is a derogatory term when used by blackbeauty. Anytime there is some public transportation thread, she peppers the term in as a put down to working class white people in Pittsburgh. We have asked her to stop using the term in such a manner, but she always uses it to feel better about herself as some progressive.

The term is mostly used when referring to Pittsburgh's older labor force that would have an accent and use words like these. Pittsburghese: nouns To be honest, there aren't all that many "yinzers" left in Pittsburgh. They are just getting older and dying off and their kids don't seem to be following suit in the same manner, but of course there are some that continue the old ways.

[MountainDewGuy]

Originally Posted by Enough_Already

Most of the time one bus takes entire cycle of a light just is allow passengers to enter and exit. Then more cars enter that street and maybe another bus or two. Two cars and one bus can take up most of a block downtown. Why can't people walk a couple blocks? If you want to know why healthcare is expensive in the US...

Originally Posted by PghYinzer

I think some additional education around the purpose of the “Stop Here On Red” sign for drivers could make a difference. My bus almost always encounters a car that doesn’t understand why they sign is posted at Wood and Ft. Pitt. The bus can’t make the turn, the first car tries to back up, but there is already a line of cars behind them. It is beyond aggravating, and I am all for the public shaming of these individuals. Also, people walking on the “Do Not Walk” signal at the corner of Fifth and Wood is a huge issue. Cars and buses can’t make turns because they have to wait on people crossing when they shouldn’t. Basic understanding of traffic laws could go a long way however I am all for moving buses to the edges of town, and heck removing cars too.

100% correct. However, the only education that will work is people getting tickets. But that isn't going to happen. We are doomed to deal with the stupidity of people.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by PghYinzer

Also, people walking on the “Do Not Walk” signal at the corner of Fifth and Wood is a huge issue. Cars and buses can’t make turns because they have to wait on people crossing when they shouldn’t. Basic understanding of traffic laws could go a long way however I am all for moving buses to the edges of town, and heck removing cars too.

I should also note the converse is also true. This is the only city I've ever lived in where drivers completely ignore walk signs and make right or left hand turns directly into crossing pedestrians.

[Xammy]

Originally Posted by Mr.BadGuy

NYC has this too, particularly around our central business districts. It's very convenient for navigating around tourists during the height of the season (i.e. NOW!). I love it. Unfortunately, another thing you need to develop car-free swaths of streets is a tax base to pay for it. If your tax base is too small or your state legislature too unwilling to allocate to your city what its residents provided through hard work, you're a bit screwed. In the majority of U.S. states, though the large urban cores function as the chief tax bases (something Pittsburghers know well), the rural and exurban areas get allocated a larger share of that tax base relative to what they contribute. You can see this tension writ large on a national level when you examine [url="http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/05/which-states-are-givers-and-which-are-takers/361668/"]how much states get back vs. how much they give in tax dollars.

Yeah, that's true. You would definitely need money to go towards something like that. In our case (in the Netherlands) we pay an enormous mount of tax. We are actually quite looking forward to getting to the states and my husband seeing more than half of his wage after he gets paid! We will feel like we have won the lottery! Haha Then we will cry as we use it for health insurance, but, low taxes!