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Your neighborhood survived before you and will after you. You chose where to live while knowing it’s current state and reputation. Now you don’t like its current state, and you want it changed to suit you and want the city to do something about it while not having to move there to begin with.
It’s funny how you think you know how people should live, where they should live, and do what you want them to. They chose an area of the city that suited them, and folks like yourself think you know best, while that area isn’t even close to resembling Jackson Twp or a Rostraver Twp. You want things changed to suit yourself while being unconcerned with how others choose to live.
I honestly had to keep seeing that you wrote this, because it actually is well thought out. I still can't believe you put this together, but you did. There is actually a point to it. Not everyone wants gentrification at all. Heck there are groups like in the Hill District that try and stop gentrification.
Now all that being said, SCR really couldn't afford to move anywhere that is already cleaned up. He really was forced into where he lives as he used to rent in Polish Hill that became so expensive. He is doing what he can to make the little area better. I think it is nice and I also think there might be a few neighbors that like that he cleans up the mess the "I don't care" people leave behind daily. What do you want him to do? I wanted him to move out of the city. Etna, Sharpsburg or Millvale, but I believe he still has to live within the city. I think he would have loved my suggestions as they are growing and are becoming pretty cool. I can't believe what is going on in Sharpsburg, but it has a long downtown that was begging to be fixed up.
SCR was in a tough spot that a lot of people in the lower middle deal with. Especially now. He has a right to do his part in fixing up his area. If more people just didn't litter all the time selfishly, most places would look better.
I honestly had to keep seeing that you wrote this, because it actually is well thought out. I still can't believe you put this together, but you did. There is actually a point to it. Not everyone wants gentrification at all. Heck there are groups like in the Hill District that try and stop gentrification.
Now all that being said, SCR really couldn't afford to move anywhere that is already cleaned up. He really was forced into where he lives as he used to rent in Polish Hill that became so expensive. He is doing what he can to make the little area better. I think it is nice and I also think there might be a few neighbors that like that he cleans up the mess the "I don't care" people leave behind daily. What do you want him to do? I wanted him to move out of the city. Etna, Sharpsburg or Millvale, but I believe he still has to live within the city. I think he would have loved my suggestions as they are growing and are becoming pretty cool. I can't believe what is going on in Sharpsburg, but it has a long downtown that was begging to be fixed up.
SCR was in a tough spot that a lot of people in the lower middle deal with. Especially now. He has a right to do his part in fixing up his area. If more people just didn't litter all the time selfishly, most places would look better.
Lol. It’s simple common sense that even you might come up with.
They could’ve stayed where they were…or moved to a better area by getting a job they’re qualified for making more versus working a job that requires almost no education
Could be wrong but I believe there’s no city limit requirement for police officers and workers.
Nobody said anyone doesn’t have a right to clean up their area. Doing nothing but picking up garbage isn’t going to change it, and expecting the city to bail that or any area out out because one doesn’t like it isn’t reality. Do something about it or move. There’s always an option.
I get both sides on that. You can not move somewhere expecting it to ever be anything different, it is the way it is because of the current residents - good or bad. Reality is it is very very hard to impact real change and needs big $ involvement. That said most people do not have an abundance of options. Find somewhere else to rent or a home in your budget and make the best of it.
I applaud the choice SCR made, might not be everyone's choice but he locked in his housing expenses low and can watch rents and rates go up w/out worry.
The size has been downgraded slightly - from 12 to 10 stories, and down from 132 to 117 units. But it will still provide additional housing in an area where almost no new units have been added in the past generation or two.
i walk right past this site on my way to work - should be fun to watch the construction
and the question remains - at what point does east end apartment unit supply become oversupply?
Really? There might be some truth to this, but certainly no where near 100%. Shadyside survived the blight that destroyed East Liberty. Do you remember East Liberty in the 80's? There is a reason why so many things were torn down. They were completely destroyed by the people who lived there. Shadyside, Point Breeze South, Squirrel Hill and North of Forbes were still in tact. East Liberty? It was prime for the pickings due to how bad it got.
I moved to Pittsburgh in 2005, and was a child in the 1980s regardless, so of course I don't remember.
You can pretty clearly see through the built environment of Shadyside though that it "went downhill" for a time. The houses from the late 19th/early 20th century are generally speaking grand, often mansions). Then the houses from the 20s were a bit more modest, and the 1950s infill really tiny, undistinguished ranches and the like. Lots of infill apartments started being built in the 1950s as well, as the big estates were broken up. Not to mention all the chopped-up houses - always a sign of an area which went downhill for a time.
I'd say there are multiple reasons why East Liberty fell apart, but it mostly comes down to the disaster of Penn Circle/the destruction of the business district and the decision to place the public housing towers there. Prior to the mid-20th century Shadyside east of Negley was considered to be part of East Liberty in fact, which is why the business districts existed on S. Highland and Ellsworth (they were the southernmost extensions of downtown East Liberty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gg
I find the term NIMBY's pretty offensively overused as well. People in their own communities should certainly have a loud voice. There are PLENTY of places to build that can keep nice neighborhoods in tact. What about growing the Hill District that has a ton of land?
NIMBYism may be overused. Some people suggest the modern attitude should instead be called BANANA (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything) because it more closely reflects the attitudes of some of these people. The NIMBY movement after all started out with things like people not wanting to have nuclear power plants, toxic waste dumps, or polluting factories near their homes, but has spiraled to be generally opposed to anything other than filling in vacant lots with single-family homes.
To be honest, I do not think that existing neighborhood residents should get veto power over new development in general, whether in Shadyside or the Hill District. There's plenty of evidence that when planning takes place on a regional (or even national, like in Japan) basis it results in more affordable housing, greater mobility, and few downsides for the general public.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BUILD PENN SQUARE
and the question remains - at what point does east end apartment unit supply become oversupply?
Once actual working-class people start moving into the more dated apartment units. There's no evidence of this happening yet.
Honestly though, my hope is the pressure on the slumlords in the East End will eventually cause more of these homes to be converted back into SFH. It's probably never gonna be feasible for the gigantic ones like in Friendship (limited market for an eight-bedroom mansion on a plot of land only 2.5 times bigger than the house's footprint), but a lot of the 2-3 units I could see going back to being SFH again.
You can pretty clearly see through the built environment of Shadyside though that it "went downhill" for a time. The houses from the late 19th/early 20th century are generally speaking grand, often mansions). Then the houses from the 20s were a bit more modest, and the 1950s infill really tiny, undistinguished ranches and the like. Lots of infill apartments started being built in the 1950s as well, as the big estates were broken up. Not to mention all the chopped-up houses - always a sign of an area which went downhill for a time.
I'd say there are multiple reasons why East Liberty fell apart, but it mostly comes down to the disaster of Penn Circle/the destruction of the business district and the decision to place the public housing towers there. Prior to the mid-20th century Shadyside east of Negley was considered to be part of East Liberty in fact, which is why the business districts existed on S. Highland and Ellsworth (they were the southernmost extensions of downtown East Liberty.
NIMBYism may be overused. Some people suggest the modern attitude should instead be called BANANA (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything) because it more closely reflects the attitudes of some of these people. The NIMBY movement after all started out with things like people not wanting to have nuclear power plants, toxic waste dumps, or polluting factories near their homes, but has spiraled to be generally opposed to anything other than filling in vacant lots with single-family homes.
To be honest, I do not think that existing neighborhood residents should get veto power over new development in general, whether in Shadyside or the Hill District. There's plenty of evidence that when planning takes place on a regional (or even national, like in Japan) basis it results in more affordable housing, greater mobility, and few downsides for the general public.
Once actual working-class people start moving into the more dated apartment units. There's no evidence of this happening yet.
Honestly though, my hope is the pressure on the slumlords in the East End will eventually cause more of these homes to be converted back into SFH. It's probably never gonna be feasible for the gigantic ones like in Friendship (limited market for an eight-bedroom mansion on a plot of land only 2.5 times bigger than the house's footprint), but a lot of the 2-3 units I could see going back to being SFH again.
Shadyside sort of has two parts. The part near College Ave was sort of a slum for a while. Heck even when I was looking to restore one MANY years ago, I didn't want to live around College Ave. I wanted to live closer to Shadyside Presbyterian, which clearly stayed in tact very well. I would live in a home while restoring it and sell it after 2 years. That being said, Shadyside hung in there okay and is quite expensive even if the home isn't much of anything.
East Liberty is a study. It was a very wealthy area and very nice and when the steel industry disappeared people were leaving in droves. People have to understand it wasn't just the steel industry, it was all the supporting businesses. East Liberty like a lot of places went down hill and become super cheap. The black community moved in a lot in that area and keep in mind they also were unemployed or making very little money. It hit them very hard as well and a lot of them left, but the ones that stayed didn't do very well as a whole, but there are exceptions of course. The Penn Circle excuse is a joke just like the Civic Arena. Complete nonsense to those of us that lived all this. It didn't "destroy" East Liberty. East Liberty was going down no matter what. Pittsburgh lost 1/2 of its population! There were going to be areas that folded and it was a shopping area that wasn't going to hang on. The poor blacks that lost their jobs needed somewhere to go and the tower were built. They destroyed them and just like all the little chopped up places that were rented they were destroyed as well for the most part. The blame can be spread around. I would certainly agree the black community didn't have a lot of opportunity in a washed up tough steel town. There was a reason so many people were leaving. I believe Pittsburgh at one time had the oldest population in the US next to St. Petersburg FL! Gives you an idea of the situation we were in. I don't buy into Penn Circle did it. Hardly. A lot of things contributed to it.
I think people who live in areas should have quite a bit of say as to what is built, BUT if a building is within current zoning, then they shouldn't be able to say all that much because, sorry, you knew the zoning and what can happen. That group in the Hill District killed the Civic Arena sight for years and years and years. Finally something is going on there. Who are they to say anything if the zoning permits buildings. They also demand it be built by minority leaders? Who has that power? Seems they think they do. What a joke!
It is all pretty complex. There is a reason people leave here and move to Charlotte or other newer growing cities. Less people standing in the way of progress. No black communities creating a mess. Just build and grow. Pittsburgh is about as dysfunctional as it gets and that is the biggest reason it is stagnate, but it is doing okay. I was down in the Strip the other day and it has changed a lot. Pretty impressive really and I felt some pride regarding it. Keep in mind I was here for the MASS exodus and watched people lose homes and having their kids go hungry. It wasn't pretty. People wonder why the Steelers were so popular. It was the only time people around here could just watch a winning team and forget everything else, even it was only for a little bit of time. That is why they had such a following. They were a diversion to the misery.
Shadyside sort of has two parts. The part near College Ave was sort of a slum for a while. Heck even when I was looking to restore one MANY years ago, I didn't want to live around College Ave. I wanted to live closer to Shadyside Presbyterian, which clearly stayed in tact very well. I would live in a home while restoring it and sell it after 2 years. That being said, Shadyside hung in there okay and is quite expensive even if the home isn't much of anything.
East Liberty is a study. It was a very wealthy area and very nice and when the steel industry disappeared people were leaving in droves. People have to understand it wasn't just the steel industry, it was all the supporting businesses. East Liberty like a lot of places went down hill and become super cheap. The black community moved in a lot in that area and keep in mind they also were unemployed or making very little money. It hit them very hard as well and a lot of them left, but the ones that stayed didn't do very well as a whole, but there are exceptions of course. The Penn Circle excuse is a joke just like the Civic Arena. Complete nonsense to those of us that lived all this. It didn't "destroy" East Liberty. East Liberty was going down no matter what. Pittsburgh lost 1/2 of its population! There were going to be areas that folded and it was a shopping area that wasn't going to hang on. The poor blacks that lost their jobs needed somewhere to go and the tower were built. They destroyed them and just like all the little chopped up places that were rented they were destroyed as well for the most part. The blame can be spread around. I would certainly agree the black community didn't have a lot of opportunity in a washed up tough steel town. There was a reason so many people were leaving. I believe Pittsburgh at one time had the oldest population in the US next to St. Petersburg FL! Gives you an idea of the situation we were in. I don't buy into Penn Circle did it. Hardly. A lot of things contributed to it.
I've looked over old demographic data from the Census. East Liberty was already an integrated neighborhood as far back as at least 1940; around 20% black. Larimer was around 30% black, Homewood 20% black, Garfield 20%. Black people were not a majority anywhere but parts of the Hill District, but every neighborhood which became black over the course of the late 20th century was already integrated. This isn't surprising; black people moved into the neighborhoods where they were already tolerated, and stayed away from areas like Lawrenceville, South Side, and Bloomfield which reacted violently to their presence.
I think some level of white flight during the period was inevitable, but the Civic Arena did undoubtedly make it worse. 8,000 people were displaced between 1955 and 1960, and they needed to go somewhere. There was a huge black influx pretty much simultaneously across Homewood, Garfield, East Liberty, Manchester, and Beltzhoover, all of which became white flight areas.
While Pittsburgh doesn't have good examples, there are neighborhoods in other cities, like Mt. Airy in Philly, which resisted total white flight and remained integrated. While it's mostly black now (57% black, 33% white) the shift happened slowly enough it didn't get trashed. As a result it still looks great, with almost no abandonment/vacant lots. It shows the damaging part of white flight was white people leaving quickly, not black people moving in, since it destroyed housing values.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gg
I think people who live in areas should have quite a bit of say as to what is built, BUT if a building is within current zoning, then they shouldn't be able to say all that much because, sorry, you knew the zoning and what can happen. That group in the Hill District killed the Civic Arena sight for years and years and years. Finally something is going on there. Who are they to say anything if the zoning permits buildings. They also demand it be built by minority leaders? Who has that power? Seems they think they do. What a joke!
I know you won't believe me, but while the Hill CDC hasn't been helpful in the process, they are not the main reason development has been slow-walked. That has more to do with giving a sports team development rights, since it's in their interest to keep the surface lots for tailgating/parking revenues as long as possible. I mean, the North Shore didn't have anything like the Hill CDC, and it's still not completely filled in despite the process starting around twenty years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gg
It is all pretty complex. There is a reason people leave here and move to Charlotte or other newer growing cities. Less people standing in the way of progress. No black communities creating a mess. Just build and grow. Pittsburgh is about as dysfunctional as it gets and that is the biggest reason it is stagnate, but it is doing okay. I was down in the Strip the other day and it has changed a lot. Pretty impressive really and I felt some pride regarding it. Keep in mind I was here for the MASS exodus and watched people lose homes and having their kids go hungry. It wasn't pretty. People wonder why the Steelers were so popular. It was the only time people around here could just watch a winning team and forget everything else, even it was only for a little bit of time. That is why they had such a following. They were a diversion to the misery.
You do realize Charlotte is 39% white, 32% black right? In general cities in the Sun Belt tend to be much more integrated than in older cities like Pittsburgh. Sun Belt cities tend to be much more racially mixed/integrated than in the Rust Belt, with even black neighborhoods being in better shape (this is a 90% black area of Charlotte - suburban and modest, but not an abandoned house or vacant lot in site). People move to the Sun Belt for all number of reasons, but it's assuredly not to avoid being around black people.
This is all very interesting, although I just wondered what your support is for this statement: "stayed away from areas like Lawrenceville, South Side, and Bloomfield which reacted violently to their presence." I don't doubt that there was opposition to blacks moving into those areas, but just wondering what you base this statement on?
Part of it is if you look over demographic data, these areas actually got whiter from 1940 to 1960/1970. They went from having a small, but notable number of black people to literally having zero in several cases. That doesn't happen on its own during a period where the black population was increasing.
There were also several neighborhoods in Pittsburgh that had "white citizens councils" which were active during the period, purposefully working to ensure there would be no black influx into them. Polish Hill's community group, IIRC, basically started out as a "white citizens council" which only recently repudiated its past history.
I'm also aware that several neighborhoods during this period had explicit, open, political movements to stop black people from moving in. Point Breeze was one. Morningside was another. I believe there was a third, though I cannot remember it at the time.
There's a lot of this ugly stuff if you dig around deeply enough.
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