give bikes a break (Pittsburgh, Homewood: allergy, live in, safe)
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I'm not responsible for everyone around me....I'm responsible for myself and loved ones.
I never drive 40 mph, but for the sake of argument... lets say I do. In my mind, it's everyones personal responsibility to ensure their own safety. So everyone should be driving defensively anyway.
That strikes me as an immoral attitude when it comes to using common rights of way. To make them safe for general use, we come up with rules for their use, and people rely on those rules as they use the common rights of way. So if you violate those rules, even for the nominal purpose of making yourself (or close loved ones) safer, and thereby make other people who are relying on the common rules you are violating less safe, by my standards you are being immoral.
Again, factually it turns out it is less safe to ride bikes on sidewalks. But suppose it was true that it reduced your risk of serious injury, but raised the risk of serious injury to pedestrians relying on the rules. I don't think it is a defense to say you don't know those pedestrians personally, so don't care about the consequences of your behavior for their safety.
I saw a cop grab a bicyclist (down town) and tell him to get off the sidewalk.It is illegal to ride on the sidewalks in down town PGH and most other cities not to mention dangerous to pedestrians.I don't know how many times I almost got hit by one of these a-holes,But I can guarantee there would have been a good old fashioned a$$ whoppin if I got hit.Problem is, bikes are silent and sneak up from behind,one wrong move when the bike is right behind you and you are a goner. My advice is to stay off the side walks for everyones safety.
That's an overly broad conclusion. It doesn't take into consideration personal behavior. It may be more dangerous when looked at from a global perspective, but is it more dangerous for me... the safety consious rider.
I think the statistics should give you pause to reconsider whether it is really safer for you, even if you are "safety conscious". Keep in mind that most people don't deliberately put themselves into situations they perceive as dangerous. Indeed, various studies have shown that a majority of people will tend to think they are above-average at avoiding various risks--which can't be true, but it tells you that people have an unfortunate tendency to think they are more exceptional than they really are.
Also keep in mind the statistics don't just say riding on sidewalks is a little more dangerous--it is a LOT more dangerous, with the observed frequency of accidents usually several multiples higher on sidewalks. So it would take a very big difference between your behavior and other cyclists' behavior to reduce that frequency just to roughly equal, let alone actually make it safer to ride on sidewalks.
Interesting article zip, I kind of wish I wrote it. Thanks for pointing it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zip95
I don't see the world like that....
I'm not responsible for everyone around me....I'm responsible for myself and loved ones.
I never drive 40 mph, but for the sake of argument... lets say I do. In my mind, it's everyones personal responsibility to ensure their own safety. So everyone should be driving defensively anyway.
So it is every man for himself?
Does that mean you never move to the left lane on a highway to let someone merge easier? I am talking about just common sense. If everyone only looks out for their own skin, we are not moving in the right direction.
I agree that many cyclists break laws, but how many times do you speed while driving? I have to drive on Rt. 28 when I drive to work, and not a single person goes 55. Does that mean everyone is breaking the law? Yes. Does it mean everyone is wrong? Not at all. How many cars run red lights? Every time a light turns red, one or two cars squeezes through before the other light turns green. Or what about the Pittsburgh left? Illegal also...
Saying cyclists break the law is simply not a good arguement. Motorists break the law all the time. It isn't the mode of transportation, but rather the person who breaks the law who should pay.
One good quote from the article zip quoted a few posts back,
"Idaho has recognized that, passing a law that allows cyclists to treat stop signs as yield signs. It also allows those on bikes to treat red lights as stop signs."
This is a common law in Europe as well. Stop signs and traffic lights were designed to slow cars down. Bikes are very different from cars, and don't necessarily need to follow the same traffic flow patterns. In Amsterdam bikes have their own lanes, as well as their own traffic lights at intersections. This means that sometimes every car at an intersection has to wait while bikes get to go. Imagine that...
That strikes me as an immoral attitude when it comes to using common rights of way. To make them safe for general use, we come up with rules for their use, and people rely on those rules as they use the common rights of way. So if you violate those rules, even for the nominal purpose of making yourself (or close loved ones) safer, and thereby make other people who are relying on the common rules you are violating less safe, by my standards you are being immoral.
Again, factually it turns out it is less safe to ride bikes on sidewalks. But suppose it was true that it reduced your risk of serious injury, but raised the risk of serious injury to pedestrians relying on the rules. I don't think it is a defense to say you don't know those pedestrians personally, so don't care about the consequences of your behavior for their safety.
Interesting... To me, your philosophy seems immoral.
How could you not do everything in your power to protect your children??? How could you put a stranger's interests above a loved one's interest......that's very odd and confused thinking from my perspective.
Does that mean you never move to the left lane on a highway to let someone merge easier? I am talking about just common sense. If everyone only looks out for their own skin, we are not moving in the right direction.
Of course we should help our fellow man.....Don't confuse what I said. I will always help anyone anyway I can....but never, under any circumstances, to the detriment of a loved one.....
My kids will ride where it is safest for them....Under no circumstances will I make them less safe for the benefit of strangers.
Interesting... To me, your philosophy seems immoral.
How could you not do everything in your power to protect your children??? How could you put a stranger's interests above a loved one's interest......that's very odd and confused thinking from my perspective.
Because the existence of civil society depends on everyone being willing to follow the rules designed to maximize our collective benefit in the long run, even if following the rules means you are not maximizing your individual benefit in the short run. And that does indeed include not always maximizing the short run benefit of those we are taking care of (e.g., our children), again for the sake of their long run collective benefit.
In other words, if everyone adopted your attitude, ALL of our children would be worse off in the long run. Indeed, it doesn't take much to see that--those "strangers" whose safety you are ignoring are necessarily somebody else's children, and if all other people similarly disregarded YOUR children's safety, your children would end up being much less safe.
Now, it is true that if you assume enough other people will be following the rules, you (and your children) might be able to get away with breaking the rules and come out ahead--this is sometimes known as the "free rider problem". Fortunately, most people have enough moral sense not to be free riders. Unfortunately, some people don't, and the only solution is to have some authority threaten to punish those people unless they start behaving in a socially cooperative way.
And that is indeed the basic nature of much immorality--people behaving selfishly in ways that endanger others and would ultimately destroy civil society if adopted universally. And that is no less true if people are nominally doing that for the sake of their children as opposed to purely for themselves.
Of course we should help our fellow man.....Don't confuse what I said. I will always help anyone anyway I can....but never, under any circumstances, to the detriment of a loved one.....
My kids will ride where it is safest for them....Under no circumstances will I make them less safe for the benefit of strangers.
I am not saying make yourself or your children unsafe to let a stranger merge on a highway quicker. I am saying when given the opportunity, you should help someone else out...
When I am on my bike, I move to the right side of the lane when a car comes up behind me, even though legally I can take the whole lane. Following that, I think it would be great if cars would wait two seconds for the road to be clear before passing me, instead of passing within a foot of me.
I can't tell you how many times a car will speed up to pass me, only to have me catch them 5 seconds later at a stoplight. Why can't they just wait behind me? Who is really that impatient to get to a redlight?
And as I suggested above, I assume that means you are OK with other people endangering your children because your children are "strangers".
Ummm......no
People like me are able to exist because people like you exist. Those who will gladly sacrifice their own family's interests in the name of some vague, nebulous, theoretical appeal to "long term societal interests".
Well....good luck with all of that. My kids will not ride their bikes on the street. I couldn't care less if it's in the long term interest of society or not.
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