Pittburgh/ Allegheny county merger (Pittsburgh, Altoona: school, utilities, living)

[SlurmsMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by Blackbeauty212

Most of those inner-ring suburbs function more like city neighborhoods anyway. They don't say "Suburb" in anyway.

Not really. Most of those inner-ring suburbs function as independent small towns. Crafton has a pretty rich history, it would be a shame to see it somewhat lost in a merger.

As a western neighborhood resident, I don't want annexation. The city has very clearly shown they do not value the western city neighborhoods (which is why we moved in the first place). Why would they value Crafton and Ingram any differently?

Property values would plummet as soon as the cities hinted that they were interesting in annexing these towns. Many of these inner-ring suburbs (like Crafton) have recently seen their property values jump. Those of us who recently bought homes here would immediately be underwater on their loans, even though many (at least those with kids) would need to sell to escape the PPS.

So, it would be a great deal for the city and generally lousy for everyone else.

[eschaton]

It's pretty well known that basically the entire North Side of Pittsburgh was annexed against its wishes in 1906. It's less well known that many of the southern city neighborhoods (South Side, Allentown, Mount Washington, Duquense Heights, West End, etc) were annexed in the late 19th century with no vote having taken place whatsoever. Here's a full list of the annexations, but I can't find the details on all of them. I know Lincoln Place came in voluntarily from West Mifflin - not sure on the other ones. But Pittsburgh expanded through a mixture of acts passed by the legislature (which took no votes) and voluntary votes by the majority to join the city (most of the later expansions)

I'm all for local government, but the bottom line is if you left it up to each individual neighborhood to decide to go into a city or not (or for that matter leave), cities around the world (not just in Pittsburgh) would be a whole lot smaller, and urban areas would be highly fragmented. I think the end result would probably be urban areas becoming less than the sum of their parts, with the nicer areas remaining quite nice and the rump cities ending up someplace like Braddock writ large.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by doo dah

People in the suburbs should stop saying they live in Pittsburgh. There should be a naming-rights tax.

People in the suburbs live in the greater metropolitan area of Pittsburgh. In that regard, they are technically right about where they live when talking to someone from outside of the area. When talking to someone within the region, they'd never say they live in Pittsburgh. They get more specific because Pittsburgh is a local government and not a metro area when talking to a local.

Originally Posted by Blackbeauty212

This in lies the Problem in Allegheny County. There's TOO MANY damn governments. A lot of these Boroughs are struggling keeping their heads above water because their tax-bases are so inadequate for the level of services they provide.

Some boroughs are struggling. Most of them are doing just fine. The reality is that Pittsburgh doesn't want to absorb the struggling neighborhoods to save them. It wants the thriving neighborhoods to save Pittsburgh. Why else would Pittsburgh annex to steal population? LOL

[doo dah]

Originally Posted by Hopes

People in the suburbs live in the greater metropolitan area of Pittsburgh. In that regard, they are technically right about where they live when talking to someone from outside of the area. When talking to someone within the region, they'd never say they live in Pittsburgh. They get more specific because Pittsburgh is a local government and not a metro area when talking to a local.


Some boroughs are struggling. Most of them are doing just fine. The reality is that Pittsburgh doesn't want to absorb the struggling neighborhoods to save them. It wants the thriving neighborhoods to save Pittsburgh. Why else would Pittsburgh annex to steal population? LOL

Then "Pittsburgh" should be greater. The suburbs are benefiting from the newly burgeoning cachet of the city of Pittsburgh. Otherwise they should call themselves what they are, the subdivision behind the strip mall on McKnight Road or whatever, and have people say "Huh?"

And, cite please for the "reality..."

[SlurmsMcKenzie]

If a suburb wants to join the city, go for it. Have a referendum and let the taxpayers of the community decide. It might make a lot of sense for some communities. I'm just not going to get behind a process where the city can essentially gobble up small, thriving communities with their own identities.

And I don't buy the point about how much we benefit from the city. True, we benefit based on proximity, but we also have struggled due to neglect in the far west city neighborhoods (Sheraden, Crafton Heights, Fairywood, East Carnegie). I'd say neighborhoods such as ours have largely prospered in spite of the city, not because of it.

[PghYinzer]

Is any such thing even under consideration or is this just a "what if" thread???

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Hopes

Some boroughs are struggling. Most of them are doing just fine. The reality is that Pittsburgh doesn't want to absorb the struggling neighborhoods to save them. It wants the thriving neighborhoods to save Pittsburgh. Why else would Pittsburgh annex to steal population? LOL

There are a few examples of potential "win-win" scenarios. For example, I've worked out the math, and Edgewood would actually have lower taxes in the City of Pittsburgh (or at least Pittsburgh Public Schools). Not to mention having access to the East End neighborhood schools, magnet system, and the Pittsburgh Promise.

More generally, I've been of the opinion over the past few years that PPS, Woodland Hills, and Penn Hills SD should consider merging. Similar demographic breakdown, and similar overall performance. The merged district would benefit from economies of scale, and again, while local neighborhood schools in the former suburban areas might not improve, the tax system would be more equitable, and access to city magnets/the Pittsburgh Promise may make them more desirable in time.

[AaronPGH]

I used to be all for a merger, but have had a lot of second thoughts lately. For a cautionary tale, look north to Toronto to see what kind of government can get elected. They merged everything at one point. Rob Ford was a suburban mayor choice*–*not a city choice. If Allegheny county had merged would we even have Peduto in office right now? I'm not so sure.

I do not trust suburban voters to make the correct decisions for our city. I'm totally on board if we are talking about school mergers, utilities, services only – but not government.

[Blackbeauty212]

Originally Posted by AaronPGH

I used to be all for a merger, but have had a lot of second thoughts lately. For a cautionary tale, look north to Toronto to see what kind of government can get elected. They merged everything at one point. Rob Ford was a suburban mayor choice*–*not a city choice. If Allegheny county had merged would we even have Peduto in office right now? I'm not so sure.

I do not trust suburban voters to make the correct decisions for our city. I'm totally on board if we are talking about school mergers, utilities, services only – but not government.

Yea, but Allegheny County also elected Rich Fitzgerald, seen as every bit as Progressive as Peduto. (I love the dynamic of the both of them, myself).. Also the county has NOT elected a Republican to ACE since Jim Roddy inaugurated the position.

I wouldn't be worried about Pittsburgh/Allegheny County losing its progressive electorate, politically as goes the City of Pittsburgh goes Allegheny County.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Blackbeauty212

Yea, but Allegheny County also elected Rich Fitzgerald, seen as every bit as Progressive as Peduto. (I love the dynamic of the both of them, myself)

We could do worse than Fitzgerald, but he's not every bit as progressive as Peduto. He's doing everything he can to have fracking in county parks for crissakes.