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Which is one of the primary reasons I posted this thread, to show that Jewish opinion and positions on this issue are diverse and greatly vary. The only thing that gets under my skin as much as someone saying "The Jews", as though they are some homogeneous group that acts in unison are those Israel supporters who wish to suggest the same.
The concern by some of these groups is that Israel's actions and the resulting plummeting of world opinion is resulting in a rise of antisemitism, not the cause of it. Many people are angry at Israel not because of who they are as a people but because of their actions and the distinction should be made. In this case, there are Jewish groups who are angry at the policies of Israel and while many can simply write them off as subversive activist, I suspect the end result will be much different.
I keep wondering if there is any reason for European Jews to respect whatever Israel does. Did any of them consider moving to Israel so they could be the targets of the Muslims? I think not and if they want to tell the world that they are not Israelis this flotilla idea is past what is necessary to tell the world that they don't like Israel. Until they have sat in the country and been shot at with rockets and artillery from all around them they have little reason to be telling Israel how to govern themselves. I think that anybody who has seen not his family blown to hell by a suicide bomber or by a randomly aimed rocket should keep his mouth shut.
Hopefully they have more advanced telecommunications equipment onboard, a live feed would be a good weapon against the to be expected atrocities. good luck to those brave people
Are you talking about the expected atrocities by the "blockade runners"?
Is there an Islamic group that is involved in all this that you also back? I am just saying that I will continue to back the Israelis until the day that Muslims stop trying to kill them off, no matter what. Only fools really think that there can be a peaceful settlement until somebody does something to force the Muslims to accept the settlement.
Are each of these organizations planning to outfit one ship? They need more of them than the Israelis can stop all at once because the other method has been attempted.
Well this isn't about Isalmic groups, this is about Jewish peace organizations who disagree with the government of Israel's policies regarding the situation in Gaza. They, like the vast majority of the world (which doesn't mean just the USA) wish to see an end to the blockade, which they also see as illegal.
Now you are free to support Israel all you wish and you are free to disagree about the legality of Israel's blockade if you also wish, as it is no skin off my nose. The point is to show that while here in the US, we are told that Israel and its government speaks for the worlds Jewish people, and this simply is not true. I ask when is the last time you saw on any mainstream news outlet in America with any more frequency than a single late night appearance, Jews who disagree with Israeli policies? Don't delude yourself, they exist and they exist in substantial numbers, even within Israel itself.
Whether they succeed in getting the aid to Gaza or not, the flotilla is a symbolic move to show the world that many of the worlds Jewish people do not accept Netanyahu's views on this matter.
It will be interesting to see how this will end up portrayed in the US media, if it is even covered any deeper than page 11 in the Times.
I'm posting this for a number of reasons but namely to point out that many Jews in the world view the extremely militant right wing Netanyahu government as counter productive to both Israel and sentiments towards Jewish people throughout the world.
They started out with one boat, but now are up to three and while not intending for it to be a Jewish only flotilla, so many Jews in Europe have offered to join that they have had to add two additional ships to accommodate people thus far.
I for one applaud their efforts and wish them good luck.
The fair, progressive Jews usually don't live in Israel anyway, they live in the States, in Europe and South America. There are some in Israel as well of course, who openly confront the regime and are not intimidated by the militaristic nature of that country. Some even go to jail for their beliefs.
Well this isn't about Isalmic groups, this is about Jewish peace organizations who disagree with the government of Israel's policies regarding the situation in Gaza. They, like the vast majority of the world (which doesn't mean just the USA) wish to see an end to the blockade, which they also see as illegal.
Now you are free to support Israel all you wish and you are free to disagree about the legality of Israel's blockade if you also wish, as it is no skin off my nose. The point is to show that while here in the US, we are told that Israel and its government speaks for the worlds Jewish people, and this simply is not true. I ask when is the last time you saw on any mainstream news outlet in America with any more frequency than a single late night appearance, Jews who disagree with Israeli policies? Don't delude yourself, they exist and they exist in substantial numbers, even within Israel itself.
Whether they succeed in getting the aid to Gaza or not, the flotilla is a symbolic move to show the world that many of the worlds Jewish people do not accept Netanyahu's views on this matter.
I keep wondering when these groups you are so het up about will take a look at who the Muslims want to destroy first. Somehow it seems to me that it will be Israel. Now we both know that the countries of western Europe have been in control of progressive types for a number of years and they have pushed a multicultural approach to immigration very hard. They have invited Muslims in and now see that in some countries like the Netherlands Muslims make up about 1/15th of the population. These people have moved into sections of cities and spread out from the center as the home people move out to avoid them. They keep pushing for more and more rights and getting them.
How about the UK where they managed to wriggle in sharia law for certain types of family problems etc? Do you not see that they are going to ask for more and more of their system within a system to apply laws? If not then you are good fodder for these groups you are so excited about. You would make a great member of one of them.
I want only to say that some of those people know that Muslims will soon take over legislatures and start doing to the "homies" just what the Muslims want to do to Israel. Like it or not it is coming unless more and more Dutch and English people start to listen to their legislative people who have the guts to speak out against Muslim takeover. Geert Wilders has been trying for years to awaken people to little avail. Now his political group won enough seats to be the main coalition party for the lefties in their legislature.
I am saying also that Jews in Europe have become as liberalized as most of their populations and that they can't see what dhimmitude means or holds out to them. Sure they want peace but haven't yet learned that appeasement of Islamists will never get it until the Islamists take over all of them. Do you see where they will turn next once they destroy Israel? Of course, Europe is the place. After Europe the next place is obviously the United States of America. Appease them and they will be like all other groups like them in the world's past when given an inch they will demand the next inch and so on. We have given them too much in this country already. They have over 2300 mosques in the US and now will have the super mosque within two blocks of "ground zero". They will hold that mosque over our heads and tell their people that it is a sure sign of just how weak the US really is.
Yep, support people who want to see Israel destroyed, and then continue to side with Muslims as they go after Europe and eventually the US. Continue to support anything that is anti-Israel and watch them take over.
People are very careless about their choice of words these days. Whenever they run out of reason to back up their opinions, they call their opponent terrorists, racists, haters, communists, fascists etc. Especially online, where all the suppressed political incorrectness bursts out of people.
I just posted a post to TennesseeHillTopper in which you will not find one of those words. I think I can back every word I said and only blind fools won't be able to see what I said as pure truth and nothing else. We are online here, aren't we? I am not at all progressive and that would make your post a bit far out in left field (pun intended) since I failed to do what you said we all do.
I keep wondering when these groups you are so het up about will take a look at who the Muslims want to destroy first. Somehow it seems to me that it will be Israel. Now we both know that the countries of western Europe have been in control of progressive types for a number of years and they have pushed a multicultural approach to immigration very hard. They have invited Muslims in and now see that in some countries like the Netherlands Muslims make up about 1/15th of the population. These people have moved into sections of cities and spread out from the center as the home people move out to avoid them. They keep pushing for more and more rights and getting them.
How about the UK where they managed to wriggle in sharia law for certain types of family problems etc? Do you not see that they are going to ask for more and more of their system within a system to apply laws? If not then you are good fodder for these groups you are so excited about. You would make a great member of one of them.
I want only to say that some of those people know that Muslims will soon take over legislatures and start doing to the "homies" just what the Muslims want to do to Israel. Like it or not it is coming unless more and more Dutch and English people start to listen to their legislative people who have the guts to speak out against Muslim takeover. Geert Wilders has been trying for years to awaken people to little avail. Now his political group won enough seats to be the main coalition party for the lefties in their legislature.
I am saying also that Jews in Europe have become as liberalized as most of their populations and that they can't see what dhimmitude means or holds out to them. Sure they want peace but haven't yet learned that appeasement of Islamists will never get it until the Islamists take over all of them. Do you see where they will turn next once they destroy Israel? Of course, Europe is the place. After Europe the next place is obviously the United States of America. Appease them and they will be like all other groups like them in the world's past when given an inch they will demand the next inch and so on. We have given them too much in this country already. They have over 2300 mosques in the US and now will have the super mosque within two blocks of "ground zero". They will hold that mosque over our heads and tell their people that it is a sure sign of just how weak the US really is.
Yep, support people who want to see Israel destroyed, and then continue to side with Muslims as they go after Europe and eventually the US. Continue to support anything that is anti-Israel and watch them take over.
Well Roy, we once viewed the former Soviet Union as the ultimate evil on earth, yet Reagan sat at a table with them. Communist China, which has always been a closed door society and also seen as evil, still managed to have Nixon sit down at a table and talk. Jimmy Carter, the bane of many, actually came closer to achieving progress in the Israeli-Palestinian issue than ANY US President, before or since.
Point being, you won't find agreement, let alone peace with a closed fist, but instead an open hand. Now I realize that is extremely cliche' but it is ultimately true.
Much of the Muslim world needs serious reformation and I think the rest of the world outside of the Middle East would love to see these nations come into the fold with the rest of humanity. Those Muslim nations that would like to consider coming into the fold are attacked by two sides, one from the US and Israel and the other from their own radical fundamentalist who point our interventions in the region as reason to resist.
I look to places like Asia and even Russia to see how America defeated them in cultural terms, we beat them with blue jeans, big macs, and coca cola. We do have a culture that many would like to take part in but can only do so once we reduce tensions enough to get a foot in the door.
Now I know most folks will disagree with me and most likely yourself, but if we look to history for examples, as many civilizations were conquered through assimilation of culture as they were through war or conflict.
Now in the case of the Jewish peace activist, they seem to think that the government of Israel is doing more harm than good. By taking a bold, belligerent military posture, they are looking for a fight, as are many Muslim radicals. The actions of radical Muslims have done nothing for achieving peace, so it stands to reason that Israel taking a similar posture and using the premise of defense will achieve the same.
Now from their point of view, it also seems that amid world condemnation of Israel's raid on this last flotilla, that people will say, "Look at those war mongering Jews" and these people want to make the distinction that it isn't even a Jewish thing as much as it is an Israeli thing. This world has too many antisemitic, racist, bigots, etc... types as it is, and the actions of late feed into these sentiments on every side. This is why the symbolic nature of what they are doing is so important.
I just posted a post to TennesseeHillTopper in which you will not find one of those words. I think I can back every word I said and only blind fools won't be able to see what I said as pure truth and nothing else. We are online here, aren't we? I am not at all progressive and that would make your post a bit far out in left field (pun intended) since I failed to do what you said we all do.
So, I am a blind fool because I don't agree with what you wrote to TennesseeHillTopper
So, I am a blind fool because I don't agree with what you wrote to TennesseeHillTopper
I guess if you can't see my words as full of truth you may be that way. Of course, you aren't trying to see any of it, though, are you?
Hey, you are the one that lives in Europe and if you can't see them slowly moving in on the place then I will have to wonder if you have been taken in by the progressives that control most of Europe and are willing to let Muslims take over their countries. Diversity is a fine thing as long as it is being multi-cultural but I don't think that most Muslims in Europe want to be assimilated. I think they want the Europeans to assimilate into their system of sharia law and they are getting their way. It is like the areas in this country where they have removed the word pig and never serve pork at schools because Muslims may not like that.
Now THT and I are talking about Jews who want to help those people take Israel out. I just can't understand them wanting to tell Israel how to live when they don't live there, themselves. Do you know who fired the first shots in 1948 when the British left Israel? I think you will find that it was Muslims who invaded at that time and almost the minute after the British left. They have attacked by force ever since that and often provoked the Israelis into being the attackers to keep fron being attacked.
Lets consider what happens after Israel falls to whatever group of Muslims. Where will they start pushing next? Why in western Europe of course. After they take that over the next one will be the US, Canada or Australia. They have their plans to create an international caliphate and don't intend to back down. If we assist them they will make it sooner.
Do you look forward to dhimmitude? I think that it won't take more than 50 years for them to create that thing unless Christians fight them since secular folks aren't going to fight them but will get to be in that kind of living no matter what if we don't fight back and much later will be too late.
Go ahead and move toward dhimmitude, unless you are too old to make it. Many children of today will be in that situation if we don't fight them now.
I guess if you can't see my words as full of truth you may be that way. Of course, you aren't trying to see any of it, though, are you?
Well, no matter how hard I try to understand someone saying 2+2=7, my mind won't allow it, and I guess I should be happy about it. Like it or not, your opinion is just one of many.
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Hey, you are the one that lives in Europe and if you can't see them slowly moving in on the place then I will have to wonder if you have been taken in by the progressives that control most of Europe and are willing to let Muslims take over their countries. Diversity is a fine thing as long as it is being multi-cultural but I don't think that most Muslims in Europe want to be assimilated. I think they want the Europeans to assimilate into their system of sharia law and they are getting their way. It is like the areas in this country where they have removed the word pig and never serve pork at schools because Muslims may not like that.
Slowly moving in?! They have been here for decades. For some time they themselves thought they would go back to Turkey after having earned enough money here to pay a house back home. But many of them have stayed indefinitely. And since they live here, it is natural they don't want to be treated like guests in a hotel anymore. They want their infrastructure, e.g. mosques and our laws don't prohibit that. The only difficult thing is where to draw the line. Special rights for Muslims are the wrong way in my view. And politicians have noticed that people don't want that whenever there were disputes regarding the Sharia, the Burka etc. There are [planned] laws to ban the Burka, mosques are usually limited in height so that they don't get higher than church steeples etc. And people? Local people usually don't adopt Islam, only a few do (who are oftentimes more of a problem than immigrant Muslims as converts tend to be more radical), but on the other hand probably even more immigrants become secular, which is often ignored because people only concentrate on radicals.
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Now THT and I are talking about Jews who want to help those people take Israel out. I just can't understand them wanting to tell Israel how to live when they don't live there, themselves. Do you know who fired the first shots in 1948 when the British left Israel? I think you will find that it was Muslims who invaded at that time and almost the minute after the British left. They have attacked by force ever since that and often provoked the Israelis into being the attackers to keep fron being attacked.
I don't want to discuss the whole messy creation of Israel yet again here, it should never have been created there in the first place, the Brits and the predecessor of the UN are very much to blame for the problems down there. While I don't like violence, I can absolutely understand the Muslims who fought Israel from the very start.
Anyway, modern Israel has an extremist government, any European country with such a government would be shunned. But with Israel people look the other side because of the Holocaust.
Palestinians have long accepted that the world doesn't give a damn about them and favors Israel, all they want is to be left alone by everyone. And that is exactly what, unlike Israel, those European Jews support, an independent Palestine.
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Lets consider what happens after Israel falls to whatever group of Muslims. Where will they start pushing next? Why in western Europe of course. After they take that over the next one will be the US, Canada or Australia. They have their plans to create an international caliphate and don't intend to back down. If we assist them they will make it sooner.
Do you look forward to dhimmitude? I think that it won't take more than 50 years for them to create that thing unless Christians fight them since secular folks aren't going to fight them but will get to be in that kind of living no matter what if we don't fight back and much later will be too late.
Go ahead and move toward dhimmitude, unless you are too old to make it. Many children of today will be in that situation if we don't fight them now.
Most Muslims don't want to make Israel fall, all they want is to be left alone and for Israel to stay out of their territory and lives. As long as that doesn't happen, there will be radicals asking for more, which is exactly what Israel wants, a never-ending occupation without peace settlement.
Take over? There is no taking over. Certainly millions of Muslims living in Europe and the US won't be invisible, but they won't take over any country. Seems to me you read too much Huntington And let's not forget that non-Muslims help Muslims in terms of quantity by having too few children as they are more into career and money than family. The main task for European governments will be trying to secularize Muslim children in school so they become Europeans. I am saying this because I don't like Islam.
There are promising signs, for instance there is a bestselling book out in Germany, written by a Turkish German woman (Melda Akbas, gorgeous woman by the way ). It is entitled 'The way I want it, my life between mini skirt and mosque' and describes from her own perspective how young Muslims in Europe are trying to combine both worlds, how they manage the tension with their oftentimes still very old-fashioned male relatives.
Last edited by Neuling; 06-13-2010 at 08:07 AM..
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And let's not forget that non-Muslims help Muslims in terms of quantity by having too few children as they are more into career and money than family. The main task for European governments will be trying to secularize Muslim children in school so they become Europeans. I am saying this because I don't like Islam.
). It is entitled 'The way I want it, my life between mini skirt and mosque' and describes from her own perspective how young Muslims in Europe are trying to combine both worlds, how they manage the tension with their oftentimes still very old-fashioned male relatives.
