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Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spunky1
Burdell, to catch you up Saganista here was stating that members of the right are narrow-minded and egocentric, judgemental or whatever he said. I simply replied by asking him if he could not see that several on the left were just as narrow-minded, opinionated, and ego-centrical by the looks of many of these responses on certain threads the last few days.
Like I said, S*P*E*C*I*F*I*C*S?
If you're going to accuse me of something, especially in a thread where I hadn't even posted anything, S*P*E*C*I*F*I*C*S?
Burdell, to catch you up Saganista here was stating that members of the right are narrow-minded and egocentric, judgemental or whatever he said.
Here is whatever he said, and said in reply to a compliment regarding an earlier post about foreign aid received from a poster in the UK, where they have a somewhat broader frame of reference re US policies and actions than what is commonly encountered here...
Can't take too much credit. I am afraid that I often state only what is obvious as against the sometimes staggering levels of narrow-minded provincialism and egotistical exceptionalism that sadly exist among some elements within this society today...
With that as a reference, could you explain where narrow-minded refers to 'members of the right' rather than to 'provincialism', and where egotistical refers to 'members of the right' rather than to 'exceptionalism'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spunky1
I simply replied by asking him if he could not see that several on the left were just as narrow-minded, opinionated, and ego-centrical by the looks of many of these responses on certain threads the last few days.
While being unable to identify for consideration one single post from among a population that was construed to be quite large. Remarkable.
We have been manipulating governments in the Middle East since the end of World War II. That's nearly 60 years. We have at least 2 generations of people who's only interaction with the US has been to see the US lower their quality of life. The US has been directly, or indirectly responsible for the deaths of many people's family members. Anyone who says they don't have a reason to hate us is being intellectually dishonest. We have given them a multitude of reasons to hate us. I can't stand the hypocritical lie that people buy into, that they hate our freedom. Nope, they don't. Let's be honest. We're bullies. We've been bullies for decades and now we're reaping the benefits.
I would have much more respect for our president if he didn't make excuses. He should come right out and say "Damn straight we've treated you like dirt, and we're going to keep doing it". That's a president I wouldn't support, but he would have my respect. President's who make up lame excuses like "they hate our freedom" are gutless, and so are the people who believe that lie.
This is a great post. We absolutely have been in their business trying to push OUR values on them, mostly for resourses like oil. They hate us for thinking we own the world. The business in the middle east is their business, we should have kept out of it and worked on solving our many problems in this country we live in, including using the available technology to produce more efficient and less oil dependent vehicles. Butting our noses where they don't belong is why they attacked us and the 9/11 tragedy occurred.
Kind of true, but I think Bush is also correct that they do resent our freedoms, if you don't believe it take a look at the fall of the Shah in Iran in the late 1970's and the reaction to Salmon Rushdie's book in the 1980's.
Don't give them too much credit. They do favor a totalitarian existence. At least at the ruling level.
Kind of true, but I think Bush is also correct that they do resent our freedoms, if you don't believe it take a look at the fall of the Shah in Iran in the late 1970's and the reaction to Salmon Rushdie's book in the 1980's. Don't give them too much credit. They do favor a totalitarian existence. At least at the ruling level.
You cannot in any way begin to understand the events of the late 1970's and 1980's in Iran without going back to the pivotal events of 1953 and then examining the progression of those succeeding 25 years...
The folks at the "ruling level" always favor a totalitarian system. They generally are the totalitarians.
Much of the world "hates" us with very good reason. The primary reason has been our frequent military support of the colonial businesses exploiting their resources for our benefit. We have favored any dictator that will keep United Fruit or ARAMCO in possession of the land or oil and prevent the locals form “stealing “ their own land or selling their own oil (In the case of Iraq – in dollars and through us).
We have never been reluctant colonialists just really inefficient ones.
It's an irreparable mess. Being from the middle east, I've run out of reasons to renew my anger towards what is happening over there. So I figure I'm not going to lose any sleep over this stuff anymore.
We have to forget our colonial pretensions and failing empire. We need to rebuild our own industries, control immigration and return to a representative government by uprooting the culture of corruption in Washington DC. Those are just the start but are near the top of the list.
If we stop messing around with the world, it just may stop messing with us.
Ok, they should hate us. Agreed..we are guilty. But I still maintain that the basic root of all this nastiness is nothing more than incompatible cultures. Period! The US doesn't have a particularly long military history in that area. Some of the hatred is simply because we are loud, coarse, obnoxious, irreverent, and rich. We live in "the biggest house on the block", so to speak, and have been known to "flaunt it" now and then. Our popular culture is seen as "contaminating" Islam. But I don't believe anyone has ever gone over there from here, pointed a gun at a local and said "I'm ORDERING you to eat at McDonald's- - to watch MTV- - and to allow your wife to wear a miniskirt, and go out dancing at a disco".
We are told they hate us because we "took" their oil. For the most part, we bought it. There is fabulous wealth in many of these areas. The fact that the guy who accepted our money didn't pass it down to the people is not really our fault. It's the fault of a harsh and uncompromising culture with very little regard for the freedom of the individual. The idea that we can introduce democracy is simply ludicrous. The people of the middle east have no more interest in democracy than the people of Arkansas have in Russian opera. Some interest, perhaps, but not enough that it can ever become a movement of any importance.
There is simply no foundation, culturally or religiuosly, upon which to build a democracy. A political contest is an all-or-nothing proposition. A loser is a loser, and is lucky to escape with his health. The winning side takes all, and the best that one can hope for is that MY leader is a bigger, meaner, nastier, and stronger bully than YOUR leader. We won't even go into the rights of half the population, women; nor the rights of minority religions- Christians, Jews, etc. -these "reforms" aren't even being discussed.
Bottom line is, there's no way we can ever mollify or please the population in that area. It's far more than "apples and oranges"--it's more like comparing "apples and tennis shoes". Our cultures and the basic systems of our societies are so different as to defy any sort of compromise short of brute force, intimidation, and fear. If we aren't willing to "go there", (and it appears we aren't), then we should wise up and withdraw from that part of the world. There's no one with whom we could deal, or sign any sort of treaty, who would be truly representative of the entire populace, because that sort of consensus simply isn't known there.
We have ventured into other areas of the world, had a few scrapes, etc., but never seemed to inspire such rabid hatred as we have in the Middle East.
Shame on us for trying to get along with someone for whom "getting along" is looked down on with scorn as a sign of weakness.
Shame on us also for wallowing in guilt. Misguided though we may be, our purposes are generally noble. We by and large pay our way (and then some) where ever we go. But you just can't resurrect a dysfunctional society. The tremendous anger seething now in the middle east should be directed at their own unwillingness to embrace society-wide reforms, and their own propensity to settle disagreements by blowing up members of the public. There will be no end to the rage as long as anyone is living under a brutal dictatorship, watching the rest of the world as they are left behind. Much of this hatred is probably self-hatred.
In conclusion, I'd say to their spokesmen the same thing that Hollywood says to me --"If you don't like MTV, don't watch it".- - (I also hate our MTV culture; I just have a little less hatred than some, I suppose)...but apparently this sort of self-responsibility just doesn't fly in their world...No solution, as I see it. For our part, we need to grow up and face the fact that some people are just going to hate us. Try to accept that fact, live the best we can, and don't aggravate them. Maybe in a century or three, if anyone is still alive, we'll have some new friends.......
Macmeal I would agree with you relating to the Middle East being a "barbaric" place from a Western perspective where we are silly to think they would embrace our style of democracy. But - I differ with you when you keep insisting the hatred toward us is just because we are rich and flaunt our culture, and then we just like to feel guilty about it. These reasons take a way back seat to others much more pragmatic as a basis of their hatred. They hate our meddling in their affairs all the time. They hate our unilateral and biased support of Israel against them in every conflict. They hated our longstanding Iraqi embargo, our coup of the Iranian PM back in the 1950s. If we ignore these things and just listen to Bush's simplistic explanation that they are all the EvilDoers and we are the White Knights, we do so at our own peril. This article back in 2001 discusses these points nicely.
Muslims and Arabs say that on reflection, they are not surprised by it. And they do not share Mr. Bush's view that the perpetrators did what they did because "they hate our freedoms."
Rather, they say, a mood of resentment toward America and its behavior around the world has become so commonplace in their countries that it was bound to breed hostility, and even hatred.
And the buttons that Mr. bin Laden pushes in his statements and interviews - the injustice done to the Palestinians, the cruelty of continued sanctions against Iraq, the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia, the repressive and corrupt nature of US-backed Gulf governments - win a good deal of popular sympathy.
The resentment of the US has spread through societies demoralized by their recent history. In few of the world's 50 or so Muslim countries have governments offered their citizens either prosperity or democracy. Arab nations have lost three wars against their arch-foe - and America's closest ally - Israel. A sense of failure and injustice is rising in the throats of millions.
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