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They're not infinite either and they are dependent on a system which requires a boundaries. If you're truly arguing the system is infinite then there is no way you can do the math.
They don't have to be infinite. The amount of energy in the universe only needs to be a constant. That constancy is not time dependent. It is the same at one time as it is at any other.
But the fact that is is conserved (i.e. can be neither created or destroyed) requires a universe infinite in time, since ether a beginning or an end would violate the laws of conservation( i.e. require either the creation or the destruction of energy).
A system infinite in time need not be infinite in any other dimension.
Okay. We'll take this one Calvinist non sequitur at a time.
Yes I did. I said an infinite regression makes sense. What does that have to do with believing in a Creator?
infinite regression of....?
A creator?
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Yes. And since a singularity is something, the universe did not "poof" into existence from nothing. Not in "essence," and not in "substance." You do know the difference between something and nothing... right?
Where did that singularity come from?
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Sure it does. The universe was there before. The universe is eternal and uncreated. And look around our little corner of the universe. Singularities "get there" all the time. There's a great big one right at the center of our galaxy. They're all over the place.
A THING is eternal and non-created? Honestly..that is just nonsense. You believe that....but have difficulty believing in an eternal Creator?
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Oh... I'm sorry. Since you talk so much about what is "logical" and what is "illogical," I thought you actually knew what those words meant. Have you never seen a set of logical syllogisms before? Really?
I'm happy to explain what I posted, but I need to know if I really am starting at the kindergarten level so I don't get so far ahead of you again.
Do you need me to define what a syllogism is?
It doesn't really seem that you were able to comprehend simple logic. You really have never answered the basic question of causality.
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Unless you deny that to count to 100 you just have to count to 100, then there's really no circular reasoning there. In fact, the "identity" relation is a fundamental operation in many if not most logical proofs.
Do you deny that to count to 100 you just have to count to 100?
You are attempting to justify your answer by stating the answer. How is that any different from me saying God did it because God did it?
According to Hawkins and others, time didn't exist until the creation of the universe, so time nor the universe are infinite.
That's what some cosmologists assert. Many others do not. In fact one of the hottest areas of research in cosmology right now has to do with what came before the Big Bang.
Hawking himself has been quite clear that he does not actually believe that the Big Bang is anything more than the "beginning" of this particular instance of universe as just one of an endless number of other universes. He has usurped the original meaning of "universe" for a new term; the multiverse.
So, we are equivocating here (not usually on purpose) when we confuse the observable universe with the original meaning of the word "universe" as everything that exists.
A THING is eternal and non-created? Honestly..that is just nonsense. You believe that....but have difficulty believing in an eternal Creator?
The universe is not "a thing." It contains many things, each and every one of which is ephemeral. As long as something exists, then there is a universe.
Since something cannot come from nothing, something must have always existed.
So the universe must have always existed.
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Originally Posted by Calvinist
It doesn't really seem that you were able to comprehend simple logic. You really have never answered the basic question of causality.
First you have to ask a question before I can answer it. What do you imagine is "the basic question of causality?" I am particularly interested because you do not seem to believe in causality in the first place.
After all, if you believe in an uncaused cause, you have just asserted that the law of causality does not exist at all.
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Originally Posted by Calvinist
You are attempting to justify your answer by stating the answer.
How does one give an answer without stating it? That would be a very neat trick.
I ask again... do you deny that to count to 100 you only have to count to 100?
Here, let me edit that to clarify:
Do you deny that to count to 100 you must actually count to 100?
Last edited by HistorianDude; 11-02-2010 at 05:16 PM..
The universe is not "a thing." It contains many things, each and every one of which is ephemeral. As long as something exists, then there is a universe.
And this big container of things is eternal?
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Since something cannot come from nothing, something must have always existed.
That something is the uncaused cause, the Creator of the universe.
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So the universe must have always existed.
Or at least the cause of the universe.
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First you have to ask a question before I can answer it. What do you imagine is "the basic question of causality?" I am particularly interested because you do not seem to believe in causality in the first place.
After all, if you believe in an uncaused cause, you have just asserted that the law of causality does not exist at all.
Your level of logical thinking here is on about a 3rd grade level. Honestly...I think my 4th grader would take you to the woodshed in a debate.
You have yet to account for the fact that it is a basic tenet of logic that whatever exists was caused by something else to exist. It's simple, common logic. You can't account for that, and you are talking in circles.
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How does one give an answer without stating it? That would be a very neat trick.
I ask again... do you deny that to count to 100 you only have to count to 100?
Come back to me when you have a real answer. Go do your homework.
Again, don't just say it. Show us. How is it impossible?
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Originally Posted by Calvinist
And this big container of things is eternal?
Of course, if you really believe in the law of causality, then there is no other possibility.
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Originally Posted by Calvinist
That something is the uncaused cause, the Creator of the universe.
See... there you go again. Explicitly denying the law of causality. And that is where my explanation is superior to yours.
My explanation does not require me to deny my own premise.
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Originally Posted by Calvinist
Your level of logical thinking here is on about a 3rd grade level. Honestly...I think my 4th grader would take you to the woodshed in a debate.
You keep saying that. When are you going to show it? Show me the error in logic contained in anything I've written.
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Originally Posted by Calvinist
You have yet to account for the fact that it is a basic tenet of logic that whatever exists was caused by something else to exist. It's simple, common logic. You can't account for that, and you are talking in circles.
1) It becomes more and more explicitly clear that you do not know what "logic" means. Because it is NOT "a basic tenet of logic that whatever exists was caused by something else to exist." That is an empirical observation, not a logical conclusion. From those observations, we can use logic to draw other conclusions. But you have to actually know what logic is before you can use it.
2) If, as you claim, "it is a basic tenet of logic that whatever exists was caused by something else to exist" how do you account for your Creator? After all, if your Creator exists, but was not caused to exist, then it contradicts your assertion that "whatever exists was caused by something else to exist."
3) An eternal universe accounts for that empirical observation perfectly and unlike your proposed Creator, it never has to violate the rule that "whatever exists was caused by something else to exist." In an eternal universe, everything that exists was caused to exist.
Now... I will ask again one of the many questions you keep running away from:
Do you deny that to count to 100, you actually have to count to 100?
They don't have to be infinite. The amount of energy in the universe only needs to be a constant. That constancy is not time dependent. It is the same at one time as it is at any other.
But the fact that is is conserved (i.e. can be neither created or destroyed) requires a universe infinite in time, since ether a beginning or an end would violate the laws of conservation( i.e. require either the creation or the destruction of energy).
A system infinite in time need not be infinite in any other dimension.
I see your point. However you're basing your belief on something that hasn't been proven and has virtually no evidence that it exist. IMO that's no different than creationism. We'll soon find out more information that will help guide our scientific path with CERN moving towards heavy elements being used in its experiments and the new found information from the Spitzer Space Telescope.
What is known is that our known universe is a system with a set amount of energy and at some point it either fizzles out, breaks apart when dark energy can no longer hold it together or it implodes in the "Big Crunch". Those are our choices and possibly destinies.
But even more than this is that religion and science are not completely independent. Many of the greatest minds in science also believe in some higher power. It helped drive the search for what we are, what life means and what our future may entail. It's fine to base your beliefs only in science but what service does it provide you, or anyone else, to deride another's search for that same desired result? I propose that it doesn't do any good and it doesn't make one superior over the other because they may have chosen a different path. And yes I understand all the different paths humans have chosen when in search for what life means including all religions or none at all.
...and the evolution of our species limps along at a snails pace, hindered by one superstition after another.
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