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All this gene babble as just to disguise the fact that white American males are no longer hungry for success in sports so don't put in that extra effort.
This is absolutely wrong. Exercise science has been able to demonstrate that genetics play the major factor in human performance at elite levels.
Jamaicans won 3 medals (one gold) in 1952 Olympics and FIVE medals 2 gold( in 1956. Pretty sure that these were in track. The reason why Jamaicans began to get scholarships from US colleges is because Jamaica had developed a solid roster of talent at the high school level and US colleges began to notice this.
Jamaicans do well because they take track very seriously. And they have now developed their own coaching talent so rely less on US training. The very talented Usain Bolt never had US training, and few of the more recent champions have had either.
So its not because the Jamaican is some "animal" with a body to run. No they train seriously which is why they beat just about every group if West Africans in track.
Note that Cuba has a large West African descended population, yet do poorly in the sprints. Some might argue that this is because their athletes are much more diverse in the range of sports that they are engaged in, so with less of a single focus on track they don't produce the talent that Jamaica does. Brazil has the second largest West African descended population behind the USA (depending on how you define this) and yet doesn't do well in the traditional black Olympic sports. Yes it does well in football but many of their players are so mixed that to attribute their skill to West/Central African ancestry is a stretch. Again they play a broader range of sports so less single focused. Indeed blacks from Latin America (and there are more of them than from anywhere outside of Africa) are outside of this conversation. European players do well in football so one cannot say that it is black dominated.
Maybe white American males just aren't interested in sports outside of niche activities. In the Olympics they only dominate swimming, while their European counterparts have a wider range of success.
Note also that white South African, who despite his disability, beat many of West African descent to get to the semi finals in the last Olympics.
I mean does any one claim that Michael Phelps wins Olympics because whites of northern European descent have a natural body to win in swimming. NO! They credit his hard work and his talent.
Well for one, take Usain Bolt out of the equation. In the history of track, he's an athletic freak and a complete anomaly in the history of track. Jamaica will never produce another runner with his abilities in this lifetime, and no other country probably will either.
Jamaicans have won intermittent medals in track before, but hell, they had a 7th place finish in the Olympic final back in 1988, and that wasn't that long ago. That was their best Olympic finish...TOTALLY unthinkable these days. Jamaica expects to have at least a few runners in the final and they expect one of them to have a top 3 finish. That simply wasn't always the case.
West Africans would have similar expectations if they emphasized track and field, but they're soccer mad people. Track is cheap up to a point, but when you get good enough to travel, those costs start mounting pretty quickly. You also need a good track to practice on and some sponsorships. Things that aren't readily available in a lot of West African countries.
So I will take it that you will agree that swimming is dominated by people of northern European ancestry only because of their type of bodies.
I said genes are not the ONLY factor, I said with equal training better genes will get you further.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny
Also there has been a heavy amount of migration between various parts of Africa. So why this huge dichotomy between East and West Africa if genes are the main determinant. And why are the completely unrelated Mexicans sometimes competitors of these East Africans?
Not sure where you got the info that HEAVY migration occured. African ethnic groups are mostly well defined and with experience you can tell them apart. West africans and east africans are quite different physically because there IS a dichotomy between them.
Doesn't matter where the blacks come from...that's the point i'm trying to make. It's a matter of choice. American blacks once dominated baseball from a proportional standpoint, but they DON'T WANT TO any longer. They aren't attracted to baseball anymore in similar numbers for a myriad of reasons.
But by proportion, blacks are still just as well represented in MLB as they've always been, it's just that the blacks are coming from other countries. David Ortiz isn't any less black just because he didn't grow up in Alabama. African Americans aren't being excluded from baseball, they just aren't interested any longer.
I know hockey very well and i understand that it's not a cheap sport to play as you go up, but it IS NOT a sport for the upper middle class as its being portrayed by people on C-D. I've stated time and time again that most of the guys in the NHL are from solidly working class families...and many of the players from Eastern Europe are from what we'd consider to be poor families. Hockey is and has always been a working class sport. In Canada, lower middle class Canadians have always played hockey at every level. Same for many parts of the U.S. In inner city Detroit and the inner ring burbs where whites (and a few blacks) are either poor or just barely considered middle class, they manage to play hockey at amateur levels and they find the necessary money to do so.
Still..money is not the reason why blacks don't play hockey. Most black children are from middle class households that can seemingly find the money for everything else. If they wanted to play hockey, they'd play hockey and they'd find the money to do so regardless of how cost prohibitive it might be in certain places.
However, you're right about black kids following the money and how that relates to college and the sports they choose. They don't really wanna play a sport in which you might have to spend several years in minor leagues...that's for damn sure.
like renault said. Baseball is dominated by whites,and latinos. Plenty of blacks, but not "heavily black"? Asians are probably catching up to them now. Baseball is lacking black athletes to the point people are making a big deal about it, which I don't understand considering blacks make up only 12% of the population. I watch plenty of baseball.
like renault said. Baseball is dominated by whites,and latinos. Plenty of blacks, but not "heavily black"? Asians are probably catching up to them now. Baseball is lacking black athletes to the point people are making a big deal about it, which I don't understand considering blacks make up only 12% of the population. I watch plenty of baseball.
yeah......and most of the "Latinos" you reference are Black.
like renault said. Baseball is dominated by whites,and latinos. Plenty of blacks, but not "heavily black"? Asians are probably catching up to them now. Baseball is lacking black athletes to the point people are making a big deal about it, which I don't understand considering blacks make up only 12% of the population. I watch plenty of baseball.
You guys must love circular arguments.
Most of those Latinos are BLACK! There is no such race as Latino. David Ortiz is black. Yeah, he's Latino but obviously of African descent.
Come on people...this isn't difficult. Baseball has no paucity of blacks. It is heavily black.
Well for one, take Usain Bolt out of the equation. In the history of track, he's an athletic freak and a complete anomaly in the history of track. Jamaica will never produce another runner with his abilities in this lifetime, and no other country probably will either.
Perhaps, but Mr. Bolt did prove himself beatable quite recently.
The 100 meters is such an intense race (well all the running events on the track are really - Harrier has run them all - with the exception of the 10,000 meters - but he has run 100 meters to 5,000 meters on the track) - but the 100 is special.
It is a test of pure speed and excellent running efficiency(which is why Harrier was no good at sprints and eventually gravitated towards long distance - that and because he possesses long twitch muscles which are better suited to running long distances).
So many things have to go right in order to win a 100 meter race: the start, form during the mid-race, the finish, and in this case - a nice lean by Mr. Gatlin, and even then he didn't seem to know that he had won.
Harrier is wondering if the Jamaicans will show up with a bobsled team in Sochi.
Iceland with a population of around 320,000 has produced some legendary strongmen like John Paul Sigmarsson and Magnus Ver Magnusson and others. Icelanders are interesting people.
There are specific groups of people amongst every population groups that will excel in certain sports, not just Africa. It's not like tribes of pigmies from Africa are dominating basketball. There are very tall/strong people in certain parts of China, Europe, the Americas and Africa, and not all over entire continants. Those things combined with cultivation is why we see what we see in sports.
The 100 meters is such an intense race (well all the running events on the track are really - Harrier has run them all - with the exception of the 10,000 meters - but he has run 100 meters to 5,000 meters on the track) - but the 100 is special.
It is a test of pure speed and excellent running efficiency(which is why Harrier was no good at sprints and eventually gravitated towards long distance - that and because he possesses long twitch muscles which are better suited to running long distances).
So many things have to go right in order to win a 100 meter race: the start, form during the mid-race, the finish, and in this case - a nice lean by Mr. Gatlin, and even then he didn't seem to know that he had won.
Harrier is wondering if the Jamaicans will show up with a bobsled team in Sochi.
Lucario is wondering why Harrier has a problem with personal pronouns.
No one mentioned the Japanese, who have done quite well in recent Olympic sprinting, as a team.
That having been said, the themes that I see most prominently are self-fulfilling prophecy and opportunity cost. Starting with the latter, the more varied ones activity in youth comes with an expense. Every moment spent doing one thing is a moment taken away from doing something else. To be exceptional at anything requires a commitment of time to be good at that particular something. However, if you are engaging in other activities,... that is time that is lost from mastering one sport or skill. Again, spreading oneself in various activities creates a well-rounded jack of all trades who is masterful at none. The "dumb jock" stereotype was probably born from the opportunity cost of playing a lot of sports meant not having or not spending that time developing the mind through studies as most of the time is spent on developing brawn.....hence dumb jock.
As for the former, a profound phenomenon that shapes reality is the self-fulfilling prophecy. What groups or individuals become is profoundly impacted by outside expectations. If people expect that you cannot do something then they treat you in a manner, often, that self-fulfills that assumption. They may never give you the opportunities to do it enough to be good at it because they expect you will not be good at it. Then they may let you try it, then you do not do well, then it confirms their belief. People and society do not try to nurture individuals and groups where they feel there is likely not a good return on investment. While on the other hand, society and people will invest heavily in people and groups where they feel there is a good return on investment.
In America society, race is powerful. Race, consciously or subconsciously, creates expectations. Asians are expected to do well in school. Blacks are expected to do well in sports. Whites are expected to be the leaders, creators and innovators. Hence, society does not nurture Asians to be good athletes or blacks to do well in school, because society does not see a return on investment because it has low expectations and assumptions about those groups in those skill sets. What society does not nurture therefore does not grow and hence the prophecy is self-fulfilled by the treatment. Overtime groups began to define themselves by how they have been seen by the larger dominant culture, which then helps to perpetuate the self-fulfilling prophecy.
I submit to you that blacks can find success academic success at the rates that Asians do and Asians can find the success in sports that blacks do, for the most part, but society does not nurture and invest where it does not see promise, which has a lot to do with race and racism. Does anyone ever wonder why the US invests more in Asia than Africa? Is it any wonder then, why Asia has boomed while Africa has remained stagnant? When you believe in people and the people believe in themselves, they sky is the limit. When you don’t believe in people and the people do not believe in themselves, they never reach the sky.
The larger dominant society and culture MOLDS groups into "nithches" based upon how they see these groups and what they expect of these groups, via how they nurture and treat these groups.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 12-31-2013 at 08:45 AM..
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