A vote for Romney is a vote for the LDS church ? (illegal, independent)

[wehotex]

katzpur opined:

We have no desire to restrict the freedom of others. Two of our Church's "Articles of Faith" (the closest thing you will find in Mormonism to a creed) state...

1. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
2. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

We have no desire to restrict your freedom. Anyone who has had any real interaction with very many members of the Church would know that. I don't care if you don't like Romneycare, but don't try to tie it to the LDS Church. That just makes you look pretty uninformed.
*************

So you "have no desire to restrict the freedom of others"? Please tell that to the hundreds of gay Calif families whose civil rights were stripped away by you.

katzpur opined:

You are obviously thinking about the LDS ban against men of African descent holding the LDS priesthood. But you are definitely wrong that the Church was founded on racist principles. As a matter of fact, in the earliest days of the Church, Blacks were not forbidden to hold the priesthood. In fact, Joseph Smith personally ordained at least one Black man to the priesthood. It was not until after Joseph's death that the ban against Blacks holding the priesthood was established.
**********************

J Smith ordained ONE black man:

Surprize! Joseph Smith Ordained a Black Man

Despite all the rhetoric, Andrew Jenson, who was the Assistant Church Historian, recorded that a man of African decent was indeed ordained to the Mormon priesthood in the early days of the church:

“Abel, Elijah, the ONLY COLORED MAN WHO IS KNOWN TO HAVE BEEN ORDAINED TO THE PRIESTHOOD, ...he was ordained an ELDER March 3, 1836, and a SEVENTY April 4, 1841, AN EXCEPTION HAVING BEEN MADE IN HIS CASE WITH REGARD TO THE GENERAL RULE OF THE CHURCH IN RELATION TO COLORED PEOPLE.... In Nauvoo HE WAS INTIMATELY ACQUAINTED WITH THE PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH... In 1883, as a MEMBER of the Third Quorum of SEVENTY, he left Salt Lake City on a MISSION to Canada, during which he also performed missionary labors in the United States. Two weeks after his return he died, Dec. 25, 1884, of debility, consequent upon exposure while laboring in the MINISTRY in Ohio. He died in full faith of the gospel.”
(L.D.S. Biographical Encyclopedia, Vol. 3, p. 577)

In 1884 the Mormon newspaper Deseret News printed Elijah Abel's obituary:

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by TheDirector

Good response however a few points.

-If Joseph Smith was not racist then why does it say in your scriptures that black skin is a result of blacks being from Lucifer?

It doesn't. Nowhere in our scriptures is there anything that remotely suggests such a thing. Joseph Smith actually was actually very much in favor of the abolition of slavery, and since most Mormons voted as a single block, one of the primary reasons they were run out of Missouri was that people were concerned that the Mormon vote would be against slavery. (There were Mormons who owned slaves at that time, just not many.) There were a number of early Mormons who I would definitely call racist. Some of them were quite outspoken about their viewpoints. I hate having to admit that, but it's unfortunately true. It is also unfortunately true that many non-Mormons of that period of time were quite racist.

-I don't know HOW they resisted pressure for almost 10 years after the civil rights movement but do you think they changed the policy because all of a sudden they realized it was wrong or because it was politically convenient?

Neither. The actual reason was that there was an enormous interest in the Church among people on the African continent. Large groups of people had heard about the Church and wanted very much to join. Some were even calling themselves LDS. The problem is that there was no leadership because 99.9% of the men who wanted to convert were not permitted to hold the priesthood. In a nutshell, that's what drove the change.

- The word cult refers to a group whose beliefs or practices are considered abnormal or bizarre.

So you're saying it's pretty subjective.

It being cult-like is just my opinion. But I encourage people to read about their beliefs.

So do I, but I would encourage them to get there information from a reliable source. I'd also encourage people to get their information about world events from someplace other than the National Enquirer, if you know what I mean.

If JFK said he would follow the word of the POPE even if it was not in the interests of the US...then that would also disqualify him...In my opinion.

That would be a good reason, in my opinion. He never did say that, though, and Romeny never said he'd follow the instructions of the LDS prophet. He didn't do that when he was running the state of Massachusetts. He wouldn't do that if he were Commander in Chief. Besides, the LDS prophet has no interest in advising the President of the United States on how to do his job. I'm not saying Romney would make a good President or a bad President. I'm just saying that the LDS Church wouldn't tell him what to do.

[Katarina Witt]

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

Huh?????????

Religion reflects someone's values. If I know someone is an Evangelical Christian or a Mormon, I know how they will vote on controversial social issues and that is something all of us take into account. You know what type of people they will nominate for Supreme Court justices. You know they will vote on gay marriage, abortion, stem cell research etc. Religion is a great indicator on how someone would vote on issues as it was certainly true with George W Bush. Most intependents and moderates do not prefer candidates that are on one extreme end of the religious spectrum.

Romney will have a difficult time beating Obama because he is Mormon because he will be seen as a socially conservative candidate and a lot of Independents stay away from that. However, that being said, Romney is one of the more moderate candidates when compared to Bachman and the others.

This is certainly untrue. Romney has shown he has an independent streak. He got himself elected governor of freaking Massachusetts, for heaven't sake!

[Willsson]

There was an issue with JFK in 1960, being catholic, you know... the lack of moral values and such. Not to mention being a Kennedy. But the nation put its qualms aside and seems there are fewer catholics now.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Who?Me?!

Anyone seen those stupid Mormon commercials....the "I'm just so normal and multi-cultural and I'm a Mormon" crap??

Maybe you don't know what "normal" is. It doesn't necessarily mean like you.

Wonder where the ORIGINAL money comes from to pay for this junk????

Republican party???

Are you serious? The Republican party pays for LDS commercials?

Or are the Mormons just so desperate they have to spend millions on getting more paying customers????

Since there are roughly 900 convert baptisms throughout the world on a daily basis, I wouldn't say "desperate" is a particularly accurate choice of words.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by wehotex

J Smith ordained ONE black man:

Surprize! Joseph Smith Ordained a Black Man

The point was made, wehotex, that the LDS Church was founded on racist principles, when in fact the ban against Blacks holding the priesthood was not even in effect until after Joseph Smith had died. Joseph Smith was not a racist. For a man of his day, he was remarkably color-blind. I was merely pointing that out.

Despite all the rhetoric, Andrew Jenson, who was the Assistant Church Historian, recorded that a man of African decent was indeed ordained to the Mormon priesthood in the early days of the church:

“Abel, Elijah, the ONLY COLORED MAN WHO IS KNOWN TO HAVE BEEN ORDAINED TO THE PRIESTHOOD, ...he was ordained an ELDER March 3, 1836, and a SEVENTY April 4, 1841, AN EXCEPTION HAVING BEEN MADE IN HIS CASE WITH REGARD TO THE GENERAL RULE OF THE CHURCH IN RELATION TO COLORED PEOPLE.... In Nauvoo HE WAS INTIMATELY ACQUAINTED WITH THE PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH... In 1883, as a MEMBER of the Third Quorum of SEVENTY, he left Salt Lake City on a MISSION to Canada, during which he also performed missionary labors in the United States. Two weeks after his return he died, Dec. 25, 1884, of debility, consequent upon exposure while laboring in the MINISTRY in Ohio. He died in full faith of the gospel.”
(L.D.S. Biographical Encyclopedia, Vol. 3, p. 577)

In 1884 the Mormon newspaper Deseret News printed Elijah Abel's obituary:

Elijah Abel wasn't the only one. There were others, among them Walker Lewis, William McCary, Enoch Abel and Elijah Abel. As I have said several times now, the ban did not originate with Joseph Smith. It was unfortunate that it ever existed, but it did. There is no religion in the world that does not have a few skeletons in its closet.

The LDS Church had a policy prohibiting Black men from holding the Priesthood. That policy was lifted when Mitt Romney was in his twenties. Can you tell me what relevance it has to Mitt Romney's qualifications to be President of the United States? Right now, it pretty much looks like you just hate Mormons. Maybe you don't object to being viewed as a bigot, but if you do, you might want to try sticking to the real issues instead of to this nonsense.

(By the way, if you would use the quote function instead of just interspersing your comments in the middle of mine, your posts would make a whole lot more sense.)

[Katarina Witt]

Originally Posted by TheDirector

I don't know of the Pope/Catholic church funding any political agendas in America..but if they have I would like to know.

Hmm. The Catholic church has postitions on abortion (very anti), same sex marrige (ditto), immigration (generally pro), and so on. Of course, the church is not stupid enough to fund political activities directly, but its members are free to donate to the causes of their choice.

[TheDirector]

Originally Posted by Katiana

Hmm. The Catholic church has postitions on abortion (very anti), same sex marrige (ditto), immigration (generally pro), and so on. Of course, the church is not stupid enough to fund political activities directly, but its members are free to donate to the causes of their choice.

Exactly my point. They have their beliefs but you don't see them dumping millions to support specific candidates and causes.

It blurs the line between church and state.

[wehotex]

Originally Posted by wehotex

katzpur opined:

We have no desire to restrict the freedom of others. Two of our Church's "Articles of Faith" (the closest thing you will find in Mormonism to a creed) state...

1. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
2. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

We have no desire to restrict your freedom. Anyone who has had any real interaction with very many members of the Church would know that. I don't care if you don't like Romneycare, but don't try to tie it to the LDS Church. That just makes you look pretty uninformed.
*************

So you "have no desire to restrict the freedom of others"? Please tell that to the hundreds of gay Calif families whose civil rights were stripped away by you.

katzpur opined:

You are obviously thinking about the LDS ban against men of African descent holding the LDS priesthood. But you are definitely wrong that the Church was founded on racist principles. As a matter of fact, in the earliest days of the Church, Blacks were not forbidden to hold the priesthood. In fact, Joseph Smith personally ordained at least one Black man to the priesthood. It was not until after Joseph's death that the ban against Blacks holding the priesthood was established.
**********************

J Smith ordained ONE black man:

Surprize! Joseph Smith Ordained a Black Man

Despite all the rhetoric, Andrew Jenson, who was the Assistant Church Historian, recorded that a man of African decent was indeed ordained to the Mormon priesthood in the early days of the church:

“Abel, Elijah, the ONLY COLORED MAN WHO IS KNOWN TO HAVE BEEN ORDAINED TO THE PRIESTHOOD, ...he was ordained an ELDER March 3, 1836, and a SEVENTY April 4, 1841, AN EXCEPTION HAVING BEEN MADE IN HIS CASE WITH REGARD TO THE GENERAL RULE OF THE CHURCH IN RELATION TO COLORED PEOPLE.... In Nauvoo HE WAS INTIMATELY ACQUAINTED WITH THE PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH... In 1883, as a MEMBER of the Third Quorum of SEVENTY, he left Salt Lake City on a MISSION to Canada, during which he also performed missionary labors in the United States. Two weeks after his return he died, Dec. 25, 1884, of debility, consequent upon exposure while laboring in the MINISTRY in Ohio. He died in full faith of the gospel.”
(L.D.S. Biographical Encyclopedia, Vol. 3, p. 577)

In 1884 the Mormon newspaper Deseret News printed Elijah Abel's obituary:

Originally Posted by TheDirector

Do you deny these parts of the Book of Mormon exist?

[SIZE=4]2 Nephi 5:21
"And the Lord had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]Alma 3: 6
[/SIZE][SIZE=4]"And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men."[/SIZE]


Mormons also push their beliefs on others.

Prop 8 in California for example.

I don't know of the Pope/Catholic church funding any political agendas in America..but if they have I would like to know.

Unfortunately, the Catholic church is guilty of forcing its beliefs on governments, but does so undercover through its Knights of columbus org, Opus Dei, National Organization for Marriage, etc. I'm sorry, sure there are more, but those are the ones that come to mind. The mormon corporation is much more insidious because of the enforcement of membership tithing and their tax free status. These insure their power to destroy anything and anyone that they find to be objectionable and against cult teachings. Romney would be a strong arm to their organization should americans be foolish enough to elect him to the Presidency.

[CaseyB]

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