Is America On The Way Down or Up? (weapon, military, Jesus)

[JazzyTallGuy]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

It's clear from this debt-ceiling fiasco and other policy coming out of DC in the last 30 years that there are powerful interests behind the scenes, national and probably international, that are trying to break America's back as the most powerful country in the world.

Yet there has to be equally powerful Pentagon-MIC interests that want to keep America the preeminent military power in the world.

So we have two very powerful interests seemingly at ideological war with each other: one wants America to go down; the other wants America to ascend, at least militarily.

How can this be? Jesus Christ once said that a house divided against itself cannot stand. One side or the other eventually has to win out, though it appears, from the looks of our shattered American economy and deteriorating condition, that the former group is winning. Or is it possible that both sides are actually striving for a duopoly: an economically broken third-world America that militarily stays the most powerful imperialist power in history as more and more poor men enter the military via the "back-door draft" and the MIC continues to build better, more deadly weapons? Can someone please help me to understand if this is what's happening to America because this is what I see going on.

The country is clearly on the DECLINE. Just look around you. Infrastructure, the hallmark of any great nation, is falling apart. We have neglected upgrading bridges, roads, and railway systems for decades. Even the upgrade to the air traffic control system is more than a decade behind schedule.

Also if you look at internet systems the United States ranks fairly low in internet connnection speeds for wired and wireless broadband connections. In many other countries WI-FI access is much more widespread than here in the United States and connection speeds are higher. European and Asian cell phone systems are also more advanced than American systems.

Education in grades K-12 is another are where we have fallen behind. Recent scoring versus children from other countries clearly shows this. Too many of our kids have an awful command of geography, history, reading or basic math skills.

Commericial aviation, America used to be the unquestioned leader in commerical aviation. Now Airbus can stand toe to toe and at the recent Paris Air Show they ate Boeings lunch in terms of orders. There will also be Chinese, Korean, and Brazilian competitors on the horizon.

The poliitics in this country has become a liability. We can move forward in any consistent way. There is constant bi-partisan arguing and wrangling on every major issue. The result is while other countrie surge forward and grow their economies and improve economic opportunities we continue to fall behind.

Americans used to dominate in sports like track and field, basketball and other sports now we face stiff competition from competitors all over the world.

Russia and China now compete with us in out space and other countries have plans in progress to explore outer space or build rockets.


American corporations no longer have the best interests of the American people at heart. They serve only their own insatiatable lust for higher profits. You don't see countries like Germany outsourcing critical manufacturing jobs and technology. They keep these in country and export products to fuel economic growth. The average American company will leave at the drop of a hat for ANYPLACE where they can get the work done cheaper.

[JazzyTallGuy]

Originally Posted by Roadking2003

Yes, this country is way too big to be effectively governed.

We should split into five or six countries.....

Funny for over 220 years we managed to govern this country through a Civil War, Two World Wars, an economic depression, the threat of nuclear annihilation from the Soviet Union, the Civil Rights Movement, an energy crisis, the Viet Nam War, the attacks of 9/11 and the global war on terror.

NOW we are too big to govern?

More like too ignorant, too unwilling to compromise, too scared of change, too hateful toward each other, lacking in leadership and in many cases just too damn greedy and self serving.

[BigJon3475]

Originally Posted by JazzyTallGuy

Funny for over 220 years we managed to govern this country through a Civil War, Two World Wars, an economic depression, the threat of nuclear annihilation from the Soviet Union, the Civil Rights Movement, an energy crisis, the Viet Nam War, the attacks of 9/11 and the global war on terror.

NOW we are too big to govern?

More like too ignorant, too unwilling to compromise, too scared of change, too hateful toward each other, lacking in leadership and in many cases just too damn greedy and self serving.

You didn't make your way to the top of the food chain being altruistic.

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

It's clear from this debt-ceiling fiasco and other policy coming out of DC in the last 30 years that there are powerful interests behind the scenes, national and probably international, that are trying to break America's back as the most powerful country in the world.

And Americans are bending over backwards trying to help them.

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

So we have two very powerful interests seemingly at ideological war with each other: one wants America to go down; the other wants America to ascend, at least militarily.

That's myopic. Are you certain one side wants America to go down? How do you know their goal isn't to force America "stand to" and stop meddling in the domestic, political, internal and economic affairs of other countries, which retards the development and progress of those countries?

If you had the guts to give live in one of the US economic slave States, and you actually saw the "Great Christian Democratic Nation" in action, you'd be singing a different song and dance.

Originally Posted by ovcatto

As for the question, is the U.S. on its way down or up.... relative to what?

Most would say their standard-of-living and life-style is declining, but that is subjective. I would say it will become richer and fuller.

I mean really, your life-style is better because you have Chlorox-brand Orange-scented disposable kitchen wipes and the people of other countries don't?

Well, they're smart, just like your great-grandmothers, and they use a $0.39 cloth kitchen rag for a year, instead of throwing away $5.95 every week.

That's probably why they can travel and sit around drinking beer and playing cards with their friends and they have nice clothes and you all don't.

Originally Posted by cyadra

We started two wars for no reason.

There was a reason. The fact that you don't understand or are unaware of the reason does not mean there is no reason.

Those wars are part of your long term geo-political global strategy. That's why you're building permanent bases in Iraq and Afghanistan. You need those countries to fulfill that goal, which terminates with seizing the oil, natural gas, coal, timber, metal ore and non-metallic resource rich eastern Russian Republics.

To do that, you need control of Central Asia, and to get control of Central Asia, you need Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran. You also need control of the Black Sea (which you already have).

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

I fail to see how NAFTA, CAFTA, FTAA and all the other free-trade acronyms coming out of Washington did anything for America but put millions of our citizens out of work while allowing the multinationals to make trillions of dollars and keep it offshore via stupid IRS regulations that allow them to legally do this.

How do you know that didn't save jobs?

Do the math.

You want to pay your union workers $48/hour with outrageous pension benefits, fine, but there's a cost to that. And the cost is you have no choice but to sell your widgets for $49 each on the global market.

At the same time, me and every other global competitor are selling our equal quality widgets for $29 each.

So what happens?

In a matter of months/years we control the global market share. We sell to 6.5 Billion people, you can only sell to 308 Million people.

Of course, Americans won't pay $49 for widgets when they can pay $29, so you go out of business and your employees are permanently laid off.

Who won? Not you.

You want to slap import tariffs on our widgets? Go ahead Big Brain, make my day.

I have a huge war chest from my profits, while you, ha, you can barely keep your doors to manufacturing plants open.

So I buy up all of your stock, then I own your company, then I shut it down and close the doors on your manufacturing plants and the employees lose their jobs.

Who won? Not you.

Oh, you're going to de-list your company from the DOW and run it as a private corp, LLC or LLP.

No problemo. I take my huge war chest of profits that you don't have, and I open up a plant in the US and hire temporary workers, then I sell my widgets for $29 each, because I can afford to take a loss and you can't.

Then you go out of business when I take over all of the US market share.

Who won? Not you.

And now that I have taken over the US market share and forced you out of business, I shut down my plants so I don't throw away my money on stupid taxes to federal, State and local governments and just import my widgets.

Things are a little more complex than you think.

Originally Posted by wxjay

I agree - downward is the trend for the country. However, I will not count a 'revival' of the country if we can do a number of things:

(1) Restore our standing in education in the world and put it as a primary focus in this country.

That's very noble (and something that needs to be done), but that is very long term, as in generational. The US Department of Education has already ruined 3 whole generations and you aren't going to undo the damage over-night.

Originally Posted by wxjay

(2) Become the leaders in new energy sources to power us and secure us away from the volatile oil markets and hence protect our national interests domestically and abroad. This includes finding and developing new energy sources and also being smarter with our own usage (e.g., energy efficiency).

You drank the Kool-Aid. Not gonna happen.

Only 3% of all the electricity in the US is produced using oil. That is exclusively Hawaii, and they exclusively use US heavy oil (from Alaska and California) and so that has ZERO impacts on oil imports.

So, when you recklessly bandy the term "energy" around I have to think that what you really mean is gasoline.

The only solution is a different engine that is not based on combustion.

You want bio-fuels? You can't even meet the paltry demand now, and all you do is whine about Cost Inflation affecting food prices. So what are you going to do in 2013 when the Lord-on-High EPA decree for cellulostic fibers goes into effect? Farmer Joe will be plowing under food crops to grow saw grass. And that will create a shortage of food causing prices to rise.

Ah, water. I get it. Well, you better hurry up because T Boone Pickens is using Obama's wind-mills and eminent domain to buy up all the water-rights at tax-payer expense.

Originally Posted by wxjay

(4) Revive the idea of 'engaged government' - meaning that people become more engaged in what is important and make sure that is top priority for our government. For too long, there has been a 'silent majority'.

Not gonna happen either. Plato told you that 2,500 years ago, but you aren't listening. People only get "engaged" when troops are rounding them up for camps, and even then some still do nothing.

Originally Posted by jwm1964

I believe that depend on the results of this next election.

It matters not.

Originally Posted by JazzyTallGuy

The country is clearly on the DECLINE. Just look around you. Infrastructure, the hallmark of any great nation, is falling apart. We have neglected upgrading bridges, roads, and railway systems for decades. Even the upgrade to the air traffic control system is more than a decade behind schedule.

And don't forget the electrical grid. That will cost $2.5 TRILLION to $3 TRILLION to modernize.

You don't have the money for any of that, you never did and you never will, so it's pointless to worry about it.

Originally Posted by JazzyTallGuy

Also if you look at internet systems the United States ranks fairly low in internet connnection speeds for wired and wireless broadband connections. In many other countries WI-FI access is much more widespread than here in the United States and connection speeds are higher. European and Asian cell phone systems are also more advanced than American systems.

I think people have other priorities.

You can't wear Wi-Fi, you can't eat Wi-Fi, you can't put Wi-Fi in your gas tank and make your car go, and you can't stick Wi-Fi in your heart to keep from having a heart attack.

Internet, broadband, wireless, should be the least and lowest of your priorities.

Originally Posted by JazzyTallGuy

Education in grades K-12 is another are where we have fallen behind. Recent scoring versus children from other countries clearly shows this. Too many of our kids have an awful command of geography, history, reading or basic math skills.

And it is pointless to worry about that until after the Department of education is disbanded and the pseudo-federal government gets the hell out of education and *******s stop with their social engineering experiments.

Originally Posted by JazzyTallGuy

Commericial aviation, America used to be the unquestioned leader in commerical aviation. Now Airbus can stand toe to toe and at the recent Paris Air Show they ate Boeings lunch in terms of orders. There will also be Chinese, Korean, and Brazilian competitors on the horizon.

That is yet another example of the US global work-force that cannot compete against the international global work-force.

Boeing is trying to remain competitive by opening a plant in South Carolina, but Obama is doing everything to ensure Boeing fails.

Originally Posted by JazzyTallGuy

There is constant bi-partisan arguing and wrangling on every major issue.

Without a major long-term crisis lasting 8-15 years, that is something that will not change either.

Originally Posted by JazzyTallGuy

Russia and China now compete with us in out space and other countries have plans in progress to explore outer space or build rockets.

Yes, more examples of leadership failure from the White House.

Originally Posted by JazzyTallGuy

You don't see countries like Germany outsourcing critical manufacturing jobs and technology.

But then Germany doesn't have 308 Million people either.

And one other very important factor, and that is German manufacturing and technology is very highly niche/specialty oriented.

What do you have in the US that is comparable? Xtek, Inc. and a handful of others. Of course, you need an intelligent work-force for that, and not a work-force of MBAs and certified nursing assistants and computer geeks.

They manufacture a lot of highly specialized equipment for export to 2nd and 3rd World countries for development. The US, on the other hand, is still trying to ram washers, dryers and cars down people's throats.

And also don't forget that German companies pay less taxes and are subsidized by the German government.

[majoun]

Originally Posted by JazzyTallGuy

Funny for over 220 years we managed to govern this country through a Civil War, Two World Wars, an economic depression, the threat of nuclear annihilation from the Soviet Union, the Civil Rights Movement, an energy crisis, the Viet Nam War, the attacks of 9/11 and the global war on terror.

NOW we are too big to govern?

More like too ignorant, too unwilling to compromise, too scared of change, too hateful toward each other, lacking in leadership and in many cases just too damn greedy and self serving.

While what you say is true I think there is a good case to be made that the US may be too big to effectively govern. A smaller nation would not be on the teetering on the edge of failure right now, and might be able to escape what appears to be a permanent decline. Maybe.

[BigJon3475]

Originally Posted by majoun

While what you say is true I think there is a good case to be made that the US may be too big to effectively govern. A smaller nation would not be on the teetering on the edge of failure right now, and might be able to escape what appears to be a permanent decline. Maybe.

In evolutionary terms, it's the Spinosaurus.

[cyadra]

"At the same time, me and every other global competitor are selling our equal quality widgets for $29 each."

I have yet to find ANY Chinese product that is of "equal" quality to anything that was made in America or Western Europe. Its all crap that falls apart or breaks much faster then anything made elsewhere.

I have a leather Coach wallet, made in America, that my gf bought me 40 years ago that looks like she just gave it to me yesterday, and I use the thing every day. I will always pay more for quality, because quality lasts and doesn't have to be replaced!

So my $49 Coach wallet is $20 more than your Chinese knock off, but if I never replace it because of its quality I make out in the long run. Especially when you keep getting new Chinese wallets.

[BigJon3475]

Originally Posted by cyadra

"At the same time, me and every other global competitor are selling our equal quality widgets for $29 each."

I have yet to find ANY Chinese product that is of "equal" quality to anything that was made in America or Western Europe. Its all crap that falls apart or breaks much faster then anything made elsewhere.

I have a leather Coach wallet, made in America, that my gf bought me 40 years ago that looks like she just gave it to me yesterday, and I use the thing every day. I will always pay more for quality, because quality lasts and doesn't have to be replaced!

So my $49 Coach wallet is $20 more than your Chinese knock off, but if I never replace it because of its quality I make out in the long run. Especially when you keep getting new Chinese wallets.

You effectively removed the entire whoa factor from what motivates people.

Try explaining that to the rest of the planet.

Tell them that while they're trying to figure out what to feed their family Coach is a better value than the knockoff for 25% of the price.

You're missing the point of finite and an ever growing population.

[JazzyTallGuy]

Originally Posted by majoun

While what you say is true I think there is a good case to be made that the US may be too big to effectively govern. A smaller nation would not be on the teetering on the edge of failure right now, and might be able to escape what appears to be a permanent decline. Maybe.

China has 1.3 billion people, India has 800 million people. These countries are significantly larger than the United States and there is no outcry demanding that these countries be made smaller because they are too big to govern.

[majoun]

Originally Posted by BigJon3475

In evolutionary terms, it's the Spinosaurus.

I.e. why the dinosaurs died off but the lizards survived?