Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
That is a false dichotomy and you know it. Society can provide healthcare for people (and food and shelter for those in need) and yet give them their freedom. Places like Norway, Sweden, and Canada do, and they are rated as freer countries than the United States.
No, it is not.
In order to provide health care as you desire, it requires the relinquishment of freedoms of choice as one is not given the option to spend that money as they choose, and in the case of the obamacare law, they are forced to purchase healthcare.
You make the argument of giving up freedoms to obtain things. You certainly are welcome to do such, PM me, I will enlighten you to a concept of involuntary servitude to which I will provide your food, shelter, healthcare and all the available necessities and you will be subject to my rule as to your freedoms (ie, you will live according to my rules, act according to my rules, and do as I tell you).
The difference between my offer to you and that of your request is that you are not simply entering an agreement under your control, but deciding for others the same fate. It is an odd concept, as it makes you a slaver and a slave all in one. /shrug
In order to provide health care as you desire, it requires the relinquishment of freedoms of choice as one is not given the option to spend that money as they choose, and in the case of the obamacare law, they are forced to purchase healthcare.
You make the argument of giving up freedoms to obtain things. You certainly are welcome to do such, PM me, I will enlighten you to a concept of involuntary servitude to which I will provide your food, shelter, healthcare and all the available necessities and you will be subject to my rule as to your freedoms (ie, you will live according to my rules, act according to my rules, and do as I tell you).
The difference between my offer to you and that of your request is that you are not simply entering an agreement under your control, but deciding for others the same fate. It is an odd concept, as it makes you a slaver and a slave all in one. /shrug
I would give up that 'choice' to choose a health are provider in a heartbeat if it gave me the means to have consistent health care. Nothing frivolous mind you, but to not have to worry about healthcare is a luxury I've never had. I'll never be able to travel, I'll never be able to start my own business and I'm going to be working constantly until I hit Medicare age because I have to have insurance at all times. I live in the constant fear that I'll lose my health insurance, because the last time I was laid off (2006) Cobra cost me $850 a month as an individual... Luckily I found a job quickly.
UHC would have allowed me to finish school quicker, would have slowed me to continue the business I started in high school and would lessen my anxiety quite a bit.
I would give up that 'choice' to choose a health are provider in a heartbeat if it gave me the means to have consistent health care. Nothing frivolous mind you, but to not have to worry about healthcare is a luxury I've never had. I'll never be able to travel, I'll never be able to start my own business and I'm going to be working constantly until I hit Medicare age because I have to have insurance at all times. I live in the constant fear that I'll lose my health insurance, because the last time I was laid off (2006) Cobra cost me $850 a month as an individual... Luckily I found a job quickly.
UHC would have allowed me to finish school quicker, would have slowed me to continue the business I started in high school and would lessen my anxiety quite a bit.
Healthy people simply don't understand.
I gave options to the poster that response was intended for. Basically, it was to trade freedom for those things being taken care of.
You are saying you would gladly give up freedom of your choice to have those and you know what? I say more power to you, this is your choice to make. You however do not have the authority to make that choice for another. Your requirement to such a system is an oppressive dictation to others that they must pay for you because you do not wish to be responsible for such things.
I wish to be responsible for those things. I choose not to support such a system or pay into it. Am I free to do such or in the pursuit of your desire for such relinquishment of responsibility, will you deem me a criminal and prosecute me, fine me, and jail me for not submitting to your demands of servitude?
I'm sure this will be quite controversial, so all the more fun to strike up a conversation about it. I don't have a 100% answer, but I have some thoughts.
The question:
Should a pre-existing condition be covered as part of regular health insurance plans?
The facts:
The concept of insurance is that it is a way to financially hedge yourself against an unexpected occurrence such as breaking a leg or getting struck by lightning. For things like home owners and car insurance, you couldn't get insurance to pay for physical damage that already exists...aka, a "pre-existing" condition.
Part of the problem with "pre-existing" conditions is that the concept only exists because we are forced to change insurance providers if/when we change jobs.
My thoughts:
Personally I don't think they should be covered as part of a regular insurance plan because I think that may be part of what causes insurance to be so expensive overall. I wonder if the market place could come up with some insurance product that is targeted at those with pre-existing conditions, or that you somehow pay into separately from regular insurance that can only be used once certain ailments are diagnosed like cancer, diabetes, or other commonly identified "pre-existing" conditions?
I also think that shifting insurance from being something that most employers provide, to something that individuals shop for and purchase on their own would go a LONG way in changing this situation.
I'm sure others have different thoughts and ideas, or would just like to chime in and call me evil or crazy.....
Why do you think there is a VA, medicare, medicaid? Because for-profit insurance companies have no use for those who can't pay (the poor=medicaid) of course. They certainly didn't want to get into covering soldiers especially those at war (VA), and old folks have too many conditions (medicare). So your question has been answered years ago.
Keep in mind, many policies do cover pre-existings after a certain waiting period.
I do agree insurance should be available the same way auto ins is available in a 'risk pool' basis for those with statisically higher odds of needing it.
If there are no companies offering it I wonder why?
Usually one can get whatever they want if they're willing to pay for it.
Have the actuaries determined enough would not buy to make it feasible?
My wife has a pre-existing condition. The cost for the policy you are talking about we came across here in the state of VA. Hipaa coverage at $2600 per-month, the other was BCBS at $1600 per-month with a 10 month waiting period, both included co-pays and deductibles. Forget about it. It was cheaper to pay out of pocket in the short term with her serious illness than it was with those plans hands down. They screamed "do not use me!" She is now on medicare, no fuss no muss.
For the same reason that some people think that paying an insurance premium should resolve them of all personal responsiblity for anything not covered or exceeding the parameters of their insurance. It is called an entitlement mentality.
Insurance is simply a safety net. It is not a bottomless bank account.
You're living in the past, that may have been true 10+ years ago but not anymore. The costs are so high now it is looked upon as a bottomless bank account. Health Insurance is much more important now because multitudes have gone bankrupt, lost everything because of a family illness, many even had insurance and still went broke.
Absolutely. Unlike car or home insurance, health care is a basic human necessity.
So is food, water, and shelter, but we pay for all of those - there's no "insurance" to cover the expense.
The trick to "pre-existing conditions" is to never let coverage lapse. The car insurance analogy is an accurate one. If we all used health insurance in the same manner in which we use car or home insurance our health insurance premiums wouldn't be so high. Instead, we us health INSURANCE as PRE-PAID health care plan which is not the idea behind "insurance" at all.
The only inherent rights you have are those you are born with, and no others. No one has the right to inflict their whims on others, and that includes medical treatment. You also do not have the right to force others to pay for services rendered to you, through taxes or any other means. If you desire medical treatment, then you must pay for the services that were rendered to you. This parasitic "entitlement" mentality needs to stop.
Glitch! Watch out there's a bear behind you!! ahh, got your leg, he ate the whole damn thing, sorry about that. Are you covered, No? Any cash, just enough for the kids college, mortgage, wife's flower bill? Hey bear, there more meat left!
After reading pages and pages I finally came upon post #99 from ReturningWest......thank you for saying what I have been going through.
After both my husband working for a solid 38 years with no breaks, and me working for 3/4 of that time, we are now currently dealing with this mess. Husband works for a very small company (5 employees...4 of which get their health insurance through their wives). They were not "permitted" to be part of a group plan due to state rules, but was able to keep it just for us because of the way UPMC categorized us. It was becoming horrendously expensive though, so when I finally found a job down here, we were able to go with the plan at my work which was less expensive (still $450/month deducted from my paltry wage). Unfortunately in July of this year I lost my job and haven't been able to find anything....as many are experiencing here in the Carolinas. And hubby can't get back on the plan we were on before. COBRA is going to cost us $1000/month. OK, so no problem, we will just get individual. Yeah, right! Applied to BC/BS of SC for a plan costing $750/month with a $4500 deductible and 20% copay. Guess what........I was accepted but hubby denied due to "pre-existing conditions".
Now before everybody jumps in saying.....well, that's fine because I don't want to pay for it, let me tell you what those "pre-existing conditions" are! Most everybody here has been talking the biggies such as cancer or $200K per year meds, but let me tell you that those insurance companies are denying all the time for little things. My husband's father was genetically pre-disposed to high cholesterol. He was well within the weight class for his height/age, actually even on the low side. He never ate french fries or red meat or fried anything, never drank beer or soda, never overate, got exercise, ate lots of fruits and vegetables, etc., basically did all the right things. But his cholesterol was NEVER below 350! So when hubby's cholesterol started to climb a bit (about 220), he was proactive about it and started a low dose medicine. It is now well under control (last test was 175). He also takes a low dose blood pressure med due to headaches he was getting from having to stare at a computer all day and the stresses from his work. Again, well under control and have been. Both meds fall under the 3 month for $10 category, so they wouldn't even be something we would have BC/BS pay for!
Yep, that's right.........he was DENIED coverage because he takes those 2 meds! There was no offer of not covering it for 3 months, 6 months, or EVER!! His only option was to go into the state "high risk pool", with those same people who have extremely high cost situations, at a cost that we can't afford (Hello??? The reason we are doing this is because I am UNEMPLOYED!!!!) or taking the COBRA which will end in January of 2013, and also being very expensive. Although the insurance companies want you to be proactive about your health so that you don't wait so long that it becomes a more expensive problem, but in reality they penalize you for doing that exact thing! It would have been better had hubby NOT been proactive about his health and just let things go and potentially get worse. I am 59 and he will be 60 in October and I have absolutely no hopes of finding another full-time job in this economy at my age (I have a college degree, which is useless), nor does hubby have a chance of finding another job with health benefits.
Although he could go without, the problem is that you just don't know what may happen. A broken bone, or even a severe case of the flu can become horrendously expensive. We don't go to a doctor for every little thing, actually we hate going at all, but we do go for yearly check-ups, and the corresponding tests that they want people of our age to have can be unaffordable for us without insurance. Neither of us have pension plans, so we have had to scrimp and save to have IRAs and 401Ks that we will need so we don't become a burden to anyone, but those have been decimated in the stock market. Although we both have college degrees, neither one of us has ever earned more the $45K per year.
Oh..BTW, I was one of the people totally against the new healthcare law. But since having to deal with all this over the last 2 months, I am seeing that parts of it are a good thing! I'm just hoping that should the powers that be in Washington come 2012 don't decide to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" and allow those of us who are between a rock and a hard place, especially at our age with even mild pre-existing conditions, to get AFFORDABLE health insurance until we qualify for Medicare (if even that is affordable in 5 years).
So is food, water, and shelter, but we pay for all of those - there's no "insurance" to cover the expense.
Food and water are entirely different than healthcare.
With healthcare you have a very small risk of running extremely high bills. This is why we have health insurance.
Food and water require constant low expenses. This is why we don't need insurance for them.
Last edited by gvsteve; 09-14-2011 at 12:57 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I don't have a 100% answer, but I have some thoughts.
