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A secondhand dealer shall not enter into any cash transactions in payment for the purchase of junk or used or secondhand property. Payment shall be made in the form of check, electronic transfers, or money order issued to the seller of the junk or used or secondhand property andmade payable to the name and address of the seller.
All payments made by check, electronic transfers, or money order shall be reported separately in the daily reports required by R.S. 37:1866.
If you ask me, it seems some people actually want to be slaves. They sure do seem to be willing to make any excuse, no matter how absurd.
I believe I stated several times herein that I felt the bill, as passed, is much too broad. That is why it may well be struck down. However, I am pointing out that it does not 'outlaw cash sales' as the original blogger believed. It does address those in business purchasing certain types of goods.
Anyway, I'm sure the good people of Louisiana will make their voices heard. Or, they may be so sick of people stealing their copper wiring, they may sit on their hands.
I'm the OP, and as I said, I'm not an attorney, but I am a former lobbyist who's comfortable and experienced with drafting legislation.
So what you're saying is that the intent is that the dealer--the person reselling the junk--can't purchase the items for resale for cash? The way it's written is too vague, and it at least looks to me like "transactions in payment for the purchase of junk..." can apply both to the original sale and resale.
"Section 1864.3: A secondhand dealer shall not enter into any cash transactions in payment for the purchase of junk or used or second hand property. Payment shall be made in the form of check, electronic transfers or money order issued to the seller of the junk or used or second hand property and payable to the name and addressee of the seller. All payments made by check, electronic transfers, or money order shall be reported separately in the daily reports required by R.S. 37:1866"
Junk is also NOT clearly defined in the bill. Of course the bill is overly broad--that's why it's so idiotic and frankly, incompetent. Just because the intent of the bill is to one thing doesn't mean that it does that--you have to deal with the finished product. If they wanted to tighten up the sale of stolen property in the state, then they should have actually done that vs. writing this piece of stupidity.
You simply do not "get it" do you? The bill is not too "Broad" ... the bill is egregiously oppressive and tyrannical and unconstitutional and anti-American and any other despotic adjective that may come to mind.
This, and anything remotely similar requires ... no demands absolute rejection ... not a "re-write" or clarification.
Here's what happens, especially in state government. Most senators and representatives are not lawyers--they're citizens just like you and me. I actually think thats a good thing.
When they write bills, or proposed legislation, they have to depend very heavily on lobbying organizations (who often approach the reps to sponsor a bill, and draft the bill for them if their group has an interest in the issue) and legislative research--lawyers that work for state government who write and draft bills for reps, and research the impact of the proposed legislation.
"Overly broad" just means that the bill doesn't really clearly say what it's supposed to do, or who's impacted, so it does different things than what the representatives who sponsored it intended--there are unintended consequences.
Usually it's caught at the legislative research stage, or by other lobbyists, but not this time.
Hey--I think you're the one with a bias problem. I don't know what the final vote was, but the SPONSORS of the bill--the representatives who brought it before the Senate and House who promoted it's passage--were bipartisan. This was BOTH a D & R thing, signed into law by a R. I've had it with government, and stupid seems to have no political boundaries.
Here's the thing though--from what others have said here it's starting to make sense that they might really be trying to find a way to track the sale of used goods for tax purposes. I thought about this last night--pawn shops are already paying sales tax and already have to do stronger reporting on sales. They were the only group exempted from the cash sales prohibition. This law would force flea markets, etc. (who are supposed to have a sales tax license) to stop under the table sales, and it would start to monitor people making a living doing "professional" garage sales and craigs list sales. I'm not sure why Goodwill and the Salavation Army thrift stores are thrown in there as well though--do they want to start taxing the sales of nonprofits who use their thrift stores as a fundraising source for their charitable work? That makes me really nervous.
Tricky Tricky Tricky. They're trying to smoke out the professional sellers from the "lets clean out the basement" sellers so they can stop under the table sales and increase their tax revenue.
I do not care who signed it, stuipd is stuipid, I was replying to another poster that WANTED to make this a political thing.
Sorry but it is not my obligation or job to ensure the tax man has a paper trail. As I said it is illegal to refuse American currency as legal tender. If they want a paper trail then they should require reciepts that state the sale amount and how much was tax, it is up to the seller to collect an pay it, outlawing cash payments wll never make it through the courts and we KNOW that the courts WILL be dealing with it.
If you ask me, it seems some people actually want to be slaves. They sure do seem to be willing to make any excuse, no matter how absurd.
I think our government has become so absurd and anti-American, that the general public can't process that in their heads so they try to rationalize what's going on so their previous paradigm of Land of the Free and Home of the Brave isn't shattered. Sounds like a type of Stockholm Syndrome to me.
Perhaps if this is indeed such a terrible problem, law enforcement ought to recommit itself to stopping crime rather than the current efforts to shut down children's lemonade stands and policing garage sales and jacking up motorists for revenue collection ... and running constant "anti-terror" drills and training ... and stop beating peaceful protesters ... and squeezing breasts in the airports for silicone C4 ?
Maybe we should just lock everyone up ... and then we can let them out one at a time if they prove they aren't criminals? That'll take a bite out of crime.
And where is the money going to come from for the increased man-hours and more police that need to be hired? Are you volunteering to pay for it?
Metal theft has greatly increased in recent years. First due to the skyrocketing price of metals during the housing/construction boom and now due to a crappy economy. I've been reading some articles on it, and all the statistics I can find from various jurisdictions show a pretty similar 300-500% increase in mental thefts since roughly 2005.
And it's a very costly crime. Ripping out $200 worth of copper wire from a house can cause tens of thousands of dollars in damage. I was just reading an article about some guys here in the Denver area who were stealing storm drain grates. They stole dozens and dozens and dozens of them. Each one costs the city $200 bucks to replace (before labor costs), if not noticed soon enough can cause huge (and very costly) issues with the sewer, and creates a large, deep open hole and a large (and potentially very costly) safety liability. The value of each grate as scrap metal - $8.
Again, this Louisiana law is stupid. Colorado recently passed what I think is a good law addressing this issue. The law here applies only to resellers and recyclers of scrap metal (it exempts metals used for food storage - soda cans, tuna tins, etc). It does not apply to other resale outfits. The law establishes a Metal Theft Alert System - basically a clerk who receives and collates in one newsletter all reports of metal theft in the state. Metal scrappers are required under the new law to either sign up for the online Metal Theft Report or have it sent to their business. This newsletter is what got the grate thief I mentioned above caught since all the metal scrappers in the state were on the lookout for him.
The CO law requires all metal scrappers to ID sellers and record every purchase they make - date, type and weight and form of metal, name of seller, type of and number on ID, and the license plate if the metal was brought in by car. Metal purchases under $300 can be made in cash. Purchases over $300 must be paid in check - however, if both parties agree, the scrapper can pay for purchases over $300 in cash if he takes and keeps a photograph of the seller. None of these records are reported to the state, but must be kept for something like 6 months and are viewable by police if they're investigating a crime.
Last edited by hammertime33; 10-21-2011 at 09:51 AM..
It looks to me (now that I can actually read the law--the site was down last night, probably from half the world trying to read it) that the INTENT--what they were really trying to do--is to make it much harder to sell and buy stolen goods. I don't think this is an evil conspiracy to ban the use of cash, or to create a secret data base that tracks what you buy at a garage sale. It's just another example of incompetent government though. I'm sure just about every rep who voted for that bill didn't read it--they trusted the sponsors to get it right, and it was a no brainer--of course you want to stop the sale of stolen goods. Unfortunately, they opened up a can of worms with with what they actually wrote and passed.
I was just thinking of another consequence of this bill. It also bans re-salers from buying anything from minors.
16 year-old Johnny will no longer be able to take Madden '11 back to the video game store and trade it in towards the purchase of Madden '12 without taking mommy - and instead of applying the buyback price towards the purchase price of the new game, mommy will have to accept a check after being IDed and fingerprinted and whatever other nonsense this bill requires.
Well, you obviously have not read the law in question.
Your questions about 'who' decides what 'junk' or what constitutes 'stolen property' is a little strange.
Back to work. I suggest you do the same and quit making mountains out of molehills.
Oh yes I did ... I generally choose not to comment on things I know absolutely nothing about .... it's a good practice that more should observe. And particularly those commenting on laws with handles suggesting they are involved or otherwise knowledgeable in the "legal" field.
Quote:
The law
§1866. Daily report of entries
A.(1) Every secondhand dealer licensed under the provisions of this Part shall make out and deliver to the chief of police of the city or town or to the sheriff of the parish in which he is doing business, every day before the hour of twelve noon, a legible and correct copy of the entries in the book mentioned in R.S. 37:1864 during the previous day. The means for providing the transactional information required under this Section shall be by electronic transmission.
(2)The appropriate law enforcement official may, for purposes of an investigation of a crime relating to a particular secondhand transaction, request the secondhand dealer to mail or fax such official the personally identifiable information relating to such transaction under investigation. The secondhand dealer shall deliver the personally identifiable information relating to the identified transaction to the appropriate law enforcement official within twenty-four hours of the request.
B. The secondhand dealer shall have the responsibility of tendering the information provided for in Subsection A of this Section regardless of its use or nonuse by the chief of police in the city or town in which he is doing business or, alternatively, to the sheriff of the parish in which he is doing business. The tender of this information is a courtesy mandated by state law and which provides a benefit to the general public. The chief of police or sheriff shall not be mandated to take any particular action concerning the information tendered.
§1861. "Secondhand dealer" defined
A.(1) Every person in this state engaged in the business of buying, selling, trading in, or otherwise acquiring or disposing of junk or used or secondhand property, including but not limited to jewelry, silverware, diamonds, precious metals, ferrous materials, catalytic converters, auto hulks, copper, copper wire, copper alloy, bronze, zinc, aluminum other than in the form of cans, stainless steel, nickel alloys, or brass, whether in the form of bars, cable, ingots, rods, tubing, wire, wire scraps, clamps or connectors, railroad track materials, water utility materials, furniture, pictures, objects of art, clothing, mechanic's tools, carpenter's tools, automobile hubcaps, automotive batteries, automotive sound equipment such as radios, CB radios, stereos, speakers, cassettes, compact disc players, and similar automotive audio supplies, used building components, and items defined as cemetery artifacts is a secondhand dealer. Anyone, other than a nonprofit entity, who buys, sells, trades in, or otherwise acquires or disposes of junk or used or secondhand property more frequently than once per month from any other person, other than a nonprofit entity, shall be deemed as being engaged in the business of a secondhand dealer.
So, it's pretty clear this covers a little more than copper. In fact... it covers just about everything from Jewelry to Clothing ... Furniture to Art ... Tools to Hubcaps ... and virtually anything else that someone might buy or sell.
Of course, it doesn't apply to infrequent sale of a personal item from one neighbor to another ... so long as you don't sell TWO things within a 30 day period .... OR buy more than one used item in a 30 day period (it applies to buyers and sellers, you know?
For everyone else though ... it applies. The flea market folks to the Craigs Listers .... and dontcha just love the DAILY REPORTS to the Sheriff or Police Chief? Did you miss that part too? Oh yes .... DAILY REPORTS for the previous day's transactions. It's right there in black and white ... try reading the law!
So, maybe you say ... hey... I don't sell used stuff anyway, so no big deal? Do you buy stuff? Do you want to give a perfect stranger your PERSONAL INFORMATION ... name, address, license plate number, driver license data just to buy a used lawn tool at a flea market or from someone on Craig's List? Do you not see how such a law could in fact create a serious personal security issue ... identity theft .. or some criminal coming to your home later and robbing you, since they have all of your personal information simply for buying a damned hedge clipper or a rake for $7 ?
And where is the money going to come from for the increased man-hours and more police that need to be hired? Are you volunteering to pay for it?
Does anyone volunteer to pay for the State Police writing $100 tickets for not wearing a seat belt ... or the speeding ticket as they sit just beyond the obscure speed reduction zone that changes from 70 to 45 mph?
Did you volunteer to give Goldman Sachs 600 Billion Dollars?
What kind of inane logic are you using here? You pay for all of it ...no need to volunteer ... just don't call the police and tell them your kid's $200 bicycle was stolen, because they couldn't care less. And don't bother to report your car vandalized and your property actually stolen, because they no longer respond to those types of calls from citizens ... they have a phone number you can call to file a report that they will stick in a pile of other reports they have no intention of doing anything about! They have bigger fish to fry ... like clamping down on those unlicensed lemonade stands, and yard sales, which everyone in law enforcement knows is a secret funding mechanism for Al Qaeda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hammertime33
Metal theft has greatly increased in recent years. First due to the skyrocketing price of metals during the housing/construction boom and now due to a crappy economy. I've been reading some articles on it, and all the statistics I can find from various jurisdictions show a pretty similar 300-500% increase in mental thefts since roughly 2005.
And it's a very costly crime. Ripping out $200 worth of copper wire from a house can cause tens of thousands of dollars in damage. I was just reading an article about some guys here in the Denver area who were stealing storm drain grates. They stole dozens and dozens and dozens of them. Each one costs the city $200 bucks to replace (before labor costs), if not noticed soon enough can cause huge (and very costly) issues with the sewer, and creates a large, deep open hole and a large (and potentially very costly) safety liability. The value of each grate as scrap metal - $8.
Again, this Louisiana law is stupid. Colorado recently passed what I think is a good law addressing this issue. The law here applies only to resellers and recyclers of scrap metal (it exempts metals used for food storage - soda cans, tuna tins, etc). It does not apply to other resale outfits. The law establishes a Metal Theft Alert System - basically a clerk who receives and collates in one newsletter all reports of metal theft in the state. Metal scrappers are required under the new law to either sign up for the online Metal Theft Report or have it sent to their business. This newsletter is what got the grate thief I mentioned above caught since all the metal scrappers in the state were on the lookout for him.
The CO law requires all metal scrappers to ID sellers and record every purchase they make - date, type and weight and form of metal, name of seller, type of and number on ID, and the license plate if the metal was brought in by car. Metal purchases under $300 can be made in cash. Purchases over $300 must be paid in check - however, if both parties agree, the scrapper can pay for purchases over $300 in cash if he takes and keeps a photograph of the seller. None of these records are reported to the state, but must be kept for something like 6 months and are viewable by police if they're investigating a crime.
What you describe is the very predictable result of an economy that is in free fall .... and when the currency has been so devalued, that a copper penny is now worth 2 1/2 pennies in melt value. And it ain't the "Copper Thieves" that created this condition ... the crooks that run the system are the ones crashing the economy and making the money worthless.
But really ... don't we actually have laws already addressing theft? Seems to me we do. All that iseems missing is the desire on the part of Police to do actual police work. They're too busy with their Federal Counter terrorism training and learning how to Swat Team organic home garden terrorists to worry about petty criminals stealing copper.
Of course, to the brain dead ... requiring citizens to file daily reports to the Sheriff for selling household items on craig's list is just what the doctor ordered to put the screws to this rampant criminality ....rather than going after the criminals who are stealing copper or whatever.
Of course, the gangsters stealing TRILLIONS from the US Treasury is really no problem at all.
The reality is ... you are the criminal ... you are guilty until proven innocent, and you will be tracked ... everything you do ... every purchase you make will be logged and cataloged and stored for future use. From your "Super Saver Card" at the grocery store, to the purchase of a hammer on Craig's List ... you can't send an email .... post a comment on CD or pee in a pot without a record being kept.
And you seem to be oblivious to the ramifications such a situation presents. You're the smart one for not getting all worked up and making mountains out of mole hills, right?
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