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Since the term "Ms" is a totally made-up title, why on earth can't France make one up as well?
Personally, I never choose "Ms" on anything. If the form does not offer Mrs. I will choose Mr. LOL
20yrsinBranson
I suppose what they are doing is the same as we did with "Ms". I guess there is a point in there somewhere. Why should a woman's marital status be obvious from their title. I'll make sure I call everyone "madamoiselle" when I visit France again. It has a nice ring to it.
I hate the Ms. title which fails to differentiate. Silly to ban language really. Every word has a meaning and this simply muddies the waters more.
Well, I don't appreciate being called Mrs. when I've been divorced for over 25 years...!
Ms. is fine with me.
And, you are right. Every word has a meaning:
I'm 60 years old, and my days of being a Miss are long gone.
However, I'm not married, either, so Mrs. is totally wrong for me (and I resent it like hell).
Well, I don't appreciate being called Mrs. when I've been divorced for over 25 years...!
Ms. is fine with me.
And, you are right. Every word has a meaning:
I'm 60 years old, and my days of being a Miss are long gone.
However, I'm not married, either, so Mrs. is totally wrong for me (and I resent it like hell).
I don't think it will change in common usage though. I'm in my 50's and married, and I've never been called anything but mademoiselle when I've been in France. I didn't think anything of it when I was younger, but I finally asked someone when it became very obvious that I was not a "miss." I don't know if this is true or not, but it was explained to me that to call an older woman madame is seen by some as a slam on her age, so for cultural reasons many simply use mademoiselle. If we have a native French speaker here, or someone more familiar with the culture than I am, I'd be curious to know if that's true. Regardless, I think titles by marital status are silly.
I went to a French school for 7 years and visited France many years after that. I'm a fluent French speaker and have French family members. All my French teachers were "Madame __" except for one, who was "Mademoiselle __". I think she was probably in her twenties. That was in the nineties, though, so maybe it's different now.
Honestly, I've never heard of middle-aged or older women taking offense to being called "Madame" (based on the last time I was in France, which was in 2008). If you go to France, you'll hear "madame" and "monsieur" used all the time. I remember hearing "madame" a lot more than "mademoiselle", which was mostly used for older teens and rarely for twenty-somethings.
Well, I don't appreciate being called Mrs. when I've been divorced for over 25 years...!
Ms. is fine with me.
And, you are right. Every word has a meaning:
I'm 60 years old, and my days of being a Miss are long gone.
However, I'm not married, either, so Mrs. is totally wrong for me (and I resent it like hell).
I think you raised a really good point, because for divorced or never married older women, (or for gay women) the titles by marital status are really awkward. I've been married for nearly 30 years, but in professional situations I don't think my marital status is anyone's concern. I think it goes back to a time when being married or not was the defining issue for a woman. Using the title "Miss" when you're middle aged puts your relationship status right out there, and people wonder if a woman is married, if not, why didn't she ever get married, or is she divorced. It's not really appropriate, and absolutely not what I'd want others to focus on at work. That's why many women simply go to Ms. If that was why France took that move on official documents, then I understand it and I think it makes sense, because they don't seem to have a Ms. equivalent.
That said, I still think calling all women "madamoiselle" in casual situations, regardless of age, is adorable, especially because it's done in such a sweet and charming way, and I can't see it changing in social usage.
I went to a French school for 7 years and visited France many years after that. I'm a fluent French speaker and have French family members. All my French teachers were "Madame __" except for one, who was "Mademoiselle __". I think she was probably in her twenties. That was in the nineties, though, so maybe it's different now.
Honestly, I've never heard of middle-aged or older women taking offense to being called "Madame" (based on the last time I was in France, which was in 2008). If you go to France, you'll hear "madame" and "monsieur" used all the time. I remember hearing "madame" a lot more than "mademoiselle", which was mostly used for older teens and rarely for twenty-somethings.
That's why I wanted to ask someone more familiar with the culture, because I wondered about it too, and as I said, that's how it was explained to me. It wasn't that women would be offended by being called Madame, but that the person speaking to me was going out of their way to be charming and not focus on the woman's age, and that they often do that with older women in a social situation. Is that wrong?
My experience there is traveling with my family for a week or so at a time on different occasions. I have family in the UK, plus we've hosted quite a few high school exchange students over the years that we're still very close to, so we visit Europe every three or four years. That said, I'm strictly a tourist, and I'm on the outside looking in. The last time we were in Paris was last summer, but it's happened repeatedly on other trips too. I only speak phrasebook French (maybe a little more than that, but not much), but I go out of my way to greet people, etc. in French, be polite, be warm, respect the culture, etc. and most people have never been anything but warm, kind, helpful, and very sweet to me--I have no idea why the French get a bad rap. I took it as people being playful and sweet to a little old lady surrounded by my huge teenage sons. Maybe I'm getting old enough that I'm getting the "pat on the head" senior treatment. Maybe it's how some talk to nice middle aged tourists that they want to charm into spending more money--who knows.
I can't imagine that they would call an older woman madamoiselle in a professional setting, like school, because it would be disrespectful under those circumstances in any culture.
That's why I wanted to ask someone more familiar with the culture, because I wondered about it too, and as I said, that's how it was explained to me. It wasn't that women would be offended by being called Madame, but that the person speaking to me was going out of their way to be charming and not focus on the woman's age, and that they often do that with older women in a social situation. Is that wrong?
My experience there is traveling with my family for a week or so at a time on different occasions. I have family in the UK, plus we've hosted quite a few high school exchange students over the years that we're still very close to, so we visit Europe every three or four years. That said, I'm strictly a tourist, and I'm on the outside looking in. The last time we were in Paris was last summer, but it's happened repeatedly on other trips too. I only speak phrasebook French (maybe a little more than that, but not much), but I go out of my way to greet people, etc. in French, be polite, be warm, respect the culture, etc. and most people have never been anything but warm, kind, helpful, and very sweet to me--I have no idea why the French get a bad rap. I took it as people being playful and sweet to a little old lady surrounded by my huge teenage sons. Maybe I'm getting old enough that I'm getting the "pat on the head" senior treatment. Maybe it's how some talk to nice middle aged tourists that they want to charm into spending more money--who knows.
I can't imagine that they would call an older woman madamoiselle in a professional setting, like school, because it would be disrespectful under those circumstances in any culture.
In that context I agree with you and have heard the same in English. I’ve heard servers call my grandmother “miss” in an attempt to be charming in English too.
Beyond that, though, I don’t really hear “mademoiselle” used that often with women who aren’t very young.
Almost any culture will be kind to you if you are kind to them. The French are no exception. Of course it also varies from individual to individual—if they are having a good day or bad day, how good they are at putting their stuff in a box and being nice to strangers, etc.
Almost any culture will be kind to you if you are kind to them. The French are no exception. Of course it also varies from individual to individual—if they are having a good day or bad day, how good they are at putting their stuff in a box and being nice to strangers, etc.
Very true, although I think the French as a culture are very warm, gracious people, but a little shy (at least compared to Americans, but then who isn't compared to us). It's adorable and charming. Can you tell I love France, lol? Perhaps I'm biased.
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Maybe it's how some talk to nice middle aged tourists that they want to charm into spending more money--who knows. 