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Read my post #6. I've provided a link on to a thread over on the Christianity subforum which discusses the practice in depth. If you're truly willing to learn, it should answer most of your questions.
Thank you. I missed the link. And, yes, I am TRULY willing to learn.
(Note: When people post in a light color many of us have trouble reading it. Handy hint for the future.)
(Note: When people post in a light color many of us have trouble reading it. Handy hint for the future.)
Actually, the underlining of the link is automatically done in that lighter color and can't be changed. I did change the text to be bold-face, though. Thanks for the suggestion.
Pro-gay marriage advocates consistently use the argument of "how does it hurt you [i.e. anyone against gay marriage] if two people of the same sex love each other and want to get married?" Yet, the same ones are outraged and offended that Mormons do something that seems silly to many non-Mormons.
Okay. But have you seen any pro-gay marriage advocates advocating that this Mormon practice be banned by law?
Pro-gay marriage advocates consistently use the argument of "how does it hurt you [i.e. anyone against gay marriage] if two people of the same sex love each other and want to get married?" Yet, the same ones are outraged and offended that Mormons do something that seems silly to many non-Mormons.
I think there is a huge difference. A gay couple marrying are both consenting adults, and their marriage does not impact anyone else in any way. The people being baptized here are Jewish, they died in the holocaust because they were Jewish. The only similarity would be issuing posthumous marriage certificates to 2 members of the LDS church of the same gender against their known beliefs, and the beliefs of their family and community.
I'm going to try to draw just one analogy that might help some of you to understand how we look at this practice. (Keep in mind that this is just an analogy. No analogy is perfect.)
Let's say I was crazy about Taylor Swift and you really didn't care for country music at all. I knew that she was coming to town to do a concert. When I bought my ticket, I bought an extra one for you (without you asking me to). I then mailed it to you and told you that I really thought you might want to reconsider and go to the concert. After all, I'd already bought the ticket. You would have a choice. You could either decide to use the ticket and go to the concert or toss it in the garbage, thinking, "Katzpur knows I don't like country music. She just wasted a lot of money on something she should know I wouldn't want."
That's how we see proxy baptism. It's an ordinance (i.e. sacrament) we perform for someone who has died, believing that if a person can change religions during his mortal life, he can do the same during the period of time between his death and his resurrection. The baptism itself accomplishes nothing -- just as my purchase of an expensive concert ticket and the time it took me to mail it accomplished nothing. If the deceased person accepts the baptism, a true conversion has taken place. If he doesn't, it's just like your throwing the concert ticket in the trash.
We don't have any way of knowing who accepts these proxy baptisms and who doesn't, and we do not increase our membership numbers by the proxy baptisms we do.
I'm going to try to draw just one analogy that might help some of you to understand how we look at this practice. (Keep in mind that this is just an analogy. No analogy is perfect.)
Let's say I was crazy about Taylor Swift and you really didn't care for country music at all. I knew that she was coming to town to do a concert. When I bought my ticket, I bought an extra one for you (without you asking me to). I then mailed it to you and told you that I really thought you might want to reconsider and go to the concert. After all, I'd already bought the ticket. You would have a choice. You could either decide to use the ticket and go to the concert or toss it in the garbage, thinking, "Katzpur knows I don't like country music. She just wasted a lot of money on something she should know I wouldn't want."
That's how we see proxy baptism. It's an ordinance (i.e. sacrament) we perform for someone who has died, believing that if a person can change religions during his mortal life, he can do the same during the period of time between his death and his resurrection. The baptism itself accomplishes nothing -- just as my purchase of an expensive concert ticket and the time it took me to mail it accomplished nothing. If the deceased person accepts the baptism, a true conversion has taken place. If he doesn't, it's just like your throwing the concert ticket in the trash.
We don't have any way of knowing who accepts these proxy baptisms and who doesn't, and we do not increase our membership numbers by the proxy baptisms we do.
I don't know anything about Mormon theology. I'm an atheist who was raised by atheists.
Do Mormon's believe in a type of Hell? If so, do these proxy after-death baptisms reach those who are in Hell, and if they accept them, do they get to leave Hell and go to Heaven?
If so, on the chance that my non-belief is wrong and I end up in Hell, I would very much like to be proxy baptized after my death.
I had no idea the Mormon Church did this type of thing. How truly offensive to disrespect the beliefs of individuals who are deceased and cannot object to this.
I'm going to try to draw just one analogy that might help some of you to understand how we look at this practice. (Keep in mind that this is just an analogy. No analogy is perfect.)
Let's say I was crazy about Taylor Swift and you really didn't care for country music at all. I knew that she was coming to town to do a concert. When I bought my ticket, I bought an extra one for you (without you asking me to). I then mailed it to you and told you that I really thought you might want to reconsider and go to the concert. After all, I'd already bought the ticket. You would have a choice. You could either decide to use the ticket and go to the concert or toss it in the garbage, thinking, "Katzpur knows I don't like country music. She just wasted a lot of money on something she should know I wouldn't want."
That's how we see proxy baptism. It's an ordinance (i.e. sacrament) we perform for someone who has died, believing that if a person can change religions during his mortal life, he can do the same during the period of time between his death and his resurrection. The baptism itself accomplishes nothing -- just as my purchase of an expensive concert ticket and the time it took me to mail it accomplished nothing. If the deceased person accepts the baptism, a true conversion has taken place. If he doesn't, it's just like your throwing the concert ticket in the trash.
We don't have any way of knowing who accepts these proxy baptisms and who doesn't, and we do not increase our membership numbers by the proxy baptisms we do.
I understand the principles behind baptism by proxy, and that does not make them any more acceptable to me. The big issue for me is the lack of respect for the faith of others. The arrogant assumption that one person's belief is more "right" than anothers is highly objectionable. Whether the baptism is accepted or rejected is neither here nor there in my view of the practice, it's the sense of entitlement to do it in the first place, particularly knowing that a person has differing, and firmly held beliefs is offensive.
I understand the principles behind baptism by proxy, and that does not make them any more acceptable to me. The big issue for me is the lack of respect for the faith of others. The arrogant assumption that one person's belief is more "right" than anothers is highly objectionable. Whether the baptism is accepted or rejected is neither here nor there in my view of the practice, it's the sense of entitlement to do it in the first place, particularly knowing that a person has differing, and firmly held beliefs is offensive.
Okay, well I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this, then.
I don't know anything about Mormon theology. I'm an atheist who was raised by atheists.
Do Mormon's believe in a type of Hell? If so, do these proxy after-death baptisms reach those who are in Hell, and if they accept them, do they get to leave Hell and go to Heaven?
Actually, it's a little bit more involved than that, but in a nutshell, yes, if the person accepts the baptism he gets to leave Hell and go to Heaven. (Please understand that my answer is a gross oversimplification of what our belief actually is, but you're on the right track in your assumption.)
Quote:
If so, on the chance that my non-belief is wrong and I end up in Hell, I would very much like to be proxy baptized after my death.
It sounds like you understand the rationale behind the practice then.
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