Why can't health insurance be like car insurance? (wage, legal, lawyers)

[wade52]

Originally Posted by Robeaux

I can't turn on the TV without seeing a commercial for car insurance, and I'm sure you have noticed the same. Geico, Allstate, eInsurance, StateFarm, Progressive, etc. Why is that??? Wouldn't you love for Flo to be saying she could save you 15% on your health insurance??

Can health insurance ever be at this point? If not, why?? Has government intervention prevented it? Is it really the insurance companies trying to make more profits?

I know it's a different market...I would say instead of comparing apples and oranges, it's more like comparing grapefruits and oranges.

Health insurance needs to go the way of the buggy whip industry. It adds no value in the health care equation. It's morphed into a giant game that favors health insurance CEOs and board members and leaves policyholders holding the bag.

[MTAtech]

Originally Posted by momonkey

Pick up a couple moving violations and see what happens to your auto insurance rates.

So why should healthy people pay high premiums for smokers and fat people?

They don't, when they buy the individual polices. When everyone gets their insurance from their employer, the policy is required to be at one group rate. Why? So the insurance company can't drop members or raise the rates of members who actually get sick. That's designed to protect you.

Originally Posted by roysoldboy

Let me tell you that one of the best examples of bad insurance is Medicare although it costs the individual nothing. It is an example of what happens when the government is in charge of what gets paid.

What exactly happens is that the costs are lower than private insurance.

Here’s the raw fact, from the National Health Expenditure data: since 1970 Medicare costs per beneficiary have risen at an annual rate of 8.8% — but insurance premiums have risen at an annual rate of 9.9%. The rise in Medicare costs is just part of the overall rise in health care spending. And in fact Medicare spending has lagged private spending: if insurance premiums had risen “only” as much as Medicare spending, they’d be 1/3 lower than they are.

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by Robeaux

Can health insurance ever be at this point?

Sure, you just have to have the courage to stand up and demand it, and the wherewithal to follow through.

Originally Posted by Robeaux

If not, why?? Has government intervention prevented it?

No, you prevented it, because you insist on having your employer provide it to you.

Originally Posted by Robeaux

Why isn't health insurance geared more towards catastrophic type coverage?

Initially it was.

When rising wages cause prices to skyrocket, that is called Wage Inflation. That happened in the early 1940s and FDR chose to enact a Wage & Price Freeze.

That prevented employers from giving you raise, and it prevented you from jumping ship to another employer for more money.

How then can employers reward their employees? They chose to offer health care benefits in the form of catastrophic coverage.

From that point forward, people kept demanding more and more. In the 1950s, emergency room visits were added. Around 1961, pregnancy and child-birth was added. In the 1970s, diagnostic testing was added, and then starting in the early 1980s, doctor's office visits were added.

Originally Posted by Robeaux

Is it the litigious nature of people in this country causing Doctors to do unneeded test?

Yes, absolutely.

Is that the prime cause? No but it is part of the reason. I have no idea what percentage it might be, but to assess accurately, you'd have to examine the cost of testing to avoid liability in addition to the cost of the liability itself, and then the cost(s) paid to avoid liability (whether that is through higher malpractice premium costs or regulatory costs etc etc), because you have a vicious cycle here.

Litigation raises costs, plus results in higher malpractice premiums, which raises costs, and which results in testing to avoid litigation which raises costs, and then you're back to litigation, because you ordered up the Hokey-Pokey Test, but not the Boogie-Woogie Test, which raises malpractice premium rates and in turn drives up costs for more testing and then even more litigation, because even though you ordered up the Hokey-Pokey Test and the Boogie-Woogie Test. you didn't use the Machine That Goes 'Ping' and that leads to litigation, etc, malpractice premiums, etc, more testing, etc, and then ever more litigation, because you had your patient undergo the Hokey-Pokey Test and the Boogie-Woogie Test and you used the Machine That Goes 'Ping' but you didn't order the Hanna-Barberra Radial Schematography Laproscopic Injection Test, and then malpractice premiums, more costs due to testing, and still litigation.

And why?

As Plaintiff's Attorney will readily point out to the gullible idiot jury, you did use the Hokey-Pokey Test and the Boogie-Woogie Test and you used the Machine That Goes 'Ping' and the Hanna-Barbera Radial Schematography Laproscopic Injection Test...

...but you failed to have your patient undergo a radical (yet unnamed) new procedural method introduced by a Belgian doctor at a Canadian clinic funded by the US via the auspices of the UNWHO in Zambia just 2 weeks after your patient died.

And people will laugh and say that cannot happen.

Wrong.

It already has happened.

Originally Posted by Robeaux

I've shopped around and a routine doctor's appointment is around $90.

Don't forget that doctor's office visit costs are directly related to insurance.

In 1979 I had a part-time job, so I thought I should pay for my own sports physical.

I called to make an appointment. Did anyone ask me if I had "insurance?" No, because that was before all of the greedy selfish bastard retards started demanding something for nothing.

I paid the $15 cost of the office visit in cash when I checked in, and then they sent me a bill every month after that for the $79 physical.

Each month I would pay $10 to $20 and then eventually it was paid off.

Did my credit rating get ruined? No, because that was before all of the greedy selfish bastard retards started demanding something for nothing which resulted in 3rd Party Medical Billing Agency which just also happen to be.....collection agencies.

Believe me, you all had a good thing going, but ruined it demanding something for nothing.

So what do you think happened when the floodgates opened up and you went from 11 national "health insurance" companies and 5 regional "health insurance" companies to more than 800+ "health insurance" companies in just a few years?

Well, the cost of doctor's visits went up. Why? Because now you have to process 800+ different insurance forms. My doctor had to hire an office manager, and full-time and part-time employees to process the 800+ different insurance forms and so his rate went from $15 to $25 and ultimately to $45.

You all want to whine and cry? Might I suggest you all get off of your lazy goat-smelling asses and go volunteer your time to process insurance claims for your doctor for free.

Then your doctor can drop his rates back down to $15 a visit.

But you people wouldn't work for free. You'd call that slave labor and demand minimum wage.

Wait a minute, what am I saying? You people wouldn't demand minimum wage, you'd demand a "livable wage."

And then all manner of benefits on top of that. So you'd end up paying $60 for an office visit instead of $45 and then you'd whine and complain about that, and demand legislators take other people's money to pay for it.

Originally Posted by Robeaux

Whatever happened to "Free clinics"?

Uh, wut?

There is no such thing as "free." Someone always has to pay, and your so-called "free clinics" are either funded by taxpayer money through the city or county health departments, or from grants obtained through taxpayer money from the State or from private donors and other philanthropic organizations.

Originally Posted by Robeaux

There are some inherent disparities in the way health insurance is provided. Why can't insurance companies compete across state lines?

Because as the US Supreme Court will tell you when it shoots down Obamacare, "health insurance" is intra-State commerce. Health insurance is not interstate commerce, and in fact, nor could it ever be.

Commercially...

Mircea

Originally Posted by VMH2507

A lot of the problem with health insurance is that people expect insurance to pay for every thing.

Yes, that is one of the major differences between America, and Europe. Liberals don't understand that.

Problematically...

Mircea

Originally Posted by MTAtech

Because car insurance and health insurance are completely different. For one, the states highly regulate auto insurance and anyone must have it to own a car. Call that the individual mandate.

The States also highly regulate health plan providers, and I don't have to buy auto insurance; I can purchase a security bond in lieu of auto insurance.

Originally Posted by MTAtech

Next, let’s say that you are self-employed, and lucky enough to have found a company to provide you with health insurance.

There's the fallacy in your argument. Employers should never have provided health coverage ever. That is your responsibility, not your employer's.

Odd how you all refuse to let your employer provide you with group auto or group homeowner's insurance, yet you pass off the responsibility for something as intensely personal as your health to your employer.

And then because your employers knows all manner of very personal sensitive medical information about you, it is then necessary to waste tax payer money debating all manner of legislation, like HIPPA and wasting taxpayer money to enforce HIPPA when your employer shouldn't even be involved in your medical/health issues.

And then some of you have the unmitigated gall to complain that your employer treats you like a slave. Well, why wouldn't they? You voluntarily hand over the most sensitive aspects of your life to them.

Originally Posted by MTAtech

Then, let’s say you develop cancer. You suddenly find out that your insurance company stinks. So you think you're going to switch to one of those companies that advertize on TV?

That's a circular argument.

If you took responsibility for your own health care, instead of demanding that your employer do so, then you could choose your health plan provider. And if you choose one that "stinks" that would be your fault.

You have voluntarily and willingly relinquished responsibility for your health care to others, then you have the gall to whine and cry that you don't like the choices they made for you, even when you told them to make those choices for you.

That's quite intelligent.

Originally Posted by MTAtech

Of course not. You’re screwed. Now you have a pre-existing condition.

That is your fault, because you refuse to take responsibility for obtaining your own health plan.

Pointing out the obvious...

Mircea

Originally Posted by Katiana

I'm getting weary of hearing this nonsense.

Then start either start telling the truth or start making sense, which are both the same thing.

Originally Posted by Katiana

Health insurance and car insurance are two different things.

No, they are the same thing. You only treat them as something different and because you do, you pay higher costs. If you would treat "health insurance" as car insurance and apply actuarial science, then "health insurance" would be affordable to everyone.

Originally Posted by Katiana

To take the last post first, there's no health care you can access from a HCP for $10. None. You can't walk in the door for that. A simple doctor's visit is usually ~$100.

Not in this area.

The price of an office visit is dependent upon the local economy, which will reflect economic conditions in that particular market and also labor conditions in that particular market. Likewise, rents and other administrative costs are affected locally, not nationally.

Remember, you live in a country, not a nation. Oh, what am I saying, you still haven't figure out that you live in a country.

Economically...

Mircea

Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81

You're always free to shop around for health insurance, just as you are for car insurance. You're not forced to buy what your employer offers.

But you are in a roundabout sort of way. I've often toyed with the idea of getting a job just so I could file a lawsuit. My claim would go like this:

1] As a disabled veteran, I already have health care provided by the VA

2] It is absurd to accept and pay for health care through an employer since I already have health care.

3] If I reject my employer's health care benefits, then I should be compensated in another manner, either higher wages, or more paid off days, or greater life insurance coverage or something equivalent.

4] Accordingly, I reject my employer's health care offer and instead demand that my employer pay me an additional $3.23/hour in wages or 401(k) compensation, since my employer is giving other employes $3.23/hour in compensation as health care benefits.

5] If my employer refuses, then I have been economically harmed, and also economically discriminated against, because my employer is giving all other employees $560/month in health care benefits while I get nothing.

6] I'm entitled to real damages, actual damages, liability and punitive damages.

I would probably try to do that in a federal court, where I could have a panel of judges in lieu of a jury. If I won, the amount of punitive damages wouldn't matter. It would only matter that I was awarded them, and then that would send shock-waves throughout America.

You know as well as I do that many people would reject health plan coverage for the express purpose of getting paid more wages or getting other compensation.

I can see Democrats rushing to enact legislation to protect employers from liability.

Legally...

Mircea

Originally Posted by momonkey

Pick up a couple moving violations and see what happens to your auto insurance rates.

So why should healthy people pay high premiums for smokers and fat people?

They should not. Not now, not ever.

That is fundamentally unfair.

Fundamentally...

Mircea

Originally Posted by VMH2507

I see the liberals are onboard to poo poo the idea of bringing down insurance costs by individuals paying for small costs.

But, of course! *******s always want something for nothing. They haven't figured out that "free" is an abstract concept, and not an accounting procedure.

Originally Posted by VMH2507

Obviously that isn't going to fly when the democrats can tar the republicans for suggesting that women might be able to pay the $9 per month cost of birth control.

Well, if women would quit wasting money on butt-ugly tattoos, they might have money for birth control.

Outside of that, they can cancel their cell-phone contract.

Cell-phones or birth control....

Choose wisely.

Rejecting liberal stupidity...

Mircea

Originally Posted by SoCalCroozer

The idea of medicare is a wonderful and much needed system.

Not really.

This goes directly back to an earlier comment I made about costs.

Because you all refused to take responsibility and dumped that onto your employer, you created a situation where people retired and become....

....unemployed.

Not being employed, they had no access to health plans, thanks to everyone's short-sightedness and refusal to accept personal responsibility for their own health.

So to ameliorate a problem people caused demanding something for nothing, you ended up with Medicare, which costs you more money than you can shake a stick at, and which is insolvent, and which is going to crash and burn in about, oh, 4-6 years.

I'll be able to tighten that up when the June 2012 Medicare report comes out.

One other important thing to consider.

At the time that Medicare was enacted, pension plans did NOT include health plan coverage. Later pension plans did, and of course, as coverage expanded, so too did the pension plans.

I mention that because I'm certain people will over-look it and scream about people reeving pension plans now are covered. Yes, that is true, but it that was not always the case.

Workers whose pension plans were negotiated in the 1940s, 1950s, and early 1960s do not have what you would consider to be "health insurance."

From the 1960s through the time pension plans practically ceased to be offered, they did have health plan coverage.

If *******s want to impress me, they can show how they intend to pay for Medicare (I want actual numbers not silly claims).

Waiting with great anticip-p-p-p-pation...

Mircea

[swagger]

I've seen a number of posts talking about having insurance for major problems, but paying for office visits and "the small stuff" out of pocket.

I'd just like to point out that when Obamacare fully kicks in, you won't be able to purchase this kind of insurance. It will be ILLEGAL. EVERY policy sold MUST include preventative care.

I just can't believe that there are still people who think this law has any redeeming value whatsoever. I don't what your political persuasion is - Obamacare is a BAD LAW.

[Kkaos2]

Originally Posted by swagger

I've seen a number of posts talking about having insurance for major problems, but paying for office visits and "the small stuff" out of pocket.

I'd just like to point out that when Obamacare fully kicks in, you won't be able to purchase this kind of insurance. It will be ILLEGAL. EVERY policy sold MUST include preventative care.

I just can't believe that there are still people who think this law has any redeeming value whatsoever. I don't what your political persuasion is - Obamacare is a BAD LAW.

I actually saw someone on this forum say that insurance should cover preventive procedures because otherwise you're not getting any use out of your premiums unless you get hurt or sick. No joke. She actually said that and was completely serious. The level of cluelessness on the part of liberals simply cannot be overestimated.

[Frank DeForrest]

Would you have your car insurer pay for oil changes and new tires?
Imagine what premiums would do and how costs would skyrocket for those who paid out of pocket?

[villageidiot1]

Originally Posted by SoCalCroozer

Are you kidding me? You're going to pin the blame of medicare fraud directly on DME suppliers? Haha...I guess all those doctors in their pearly white coats and their ivory towers would NEVER EVER commit medicare and medicaid fraud right?

I mean there is no way pain clinics in FL who are run by doctors would ever get caught with millions of dollars of cash in their attic because they are dispensing pain medication illegally and making a killing off of it. THE ENTIRE MEDICARE SPECTRUM of providers is corrupt....i.e. all levels. doctors, suppliers, patients, hospitals etc.

I said the biggest problem with Medicare, not the only problem. To state that, "THE ENTIRE MEDICARE SPECTRUM of providers is corrupt....i.e. all levels. doctors, suppliers, patients, hospitals etc." shows that you are cynical about the entire medical community, which is ridiculous. There are corrupt people in every walk of life. Florida just happens to have more corrupt people involved in the medical industry.

[rbohm]

every one keeps dancing around why health insurance is so costly, as compared to auto insurance;

1: health insurance is regulated not only by the states, but by the federal government as well.

2: federal and state government have many costly mandates that require health insurance to pay for many things, even if you will NEVER use them.

3: state and federal governments have piled on the paperwork for doctors and hospitals, so much so that each have staffs of people just to handle the paperwork requirements.

4: health insurance companies are required to pay out at least 65% of the premiums they take in on health care. soon that requirement will be 85% if the obamacare law is upheld.

5: most people have their health insurance pay for everything health related rather than pay for somethings themselves.

6: doctors order extra tests to avoid being sued.

7: malpractice insurance rates are extremely high, as much as $200,000 per year for many doctors.

8: doctors get sued far too often because someone got a hangnail and the doctor didnt cure them quick enough.

[badhornet]

I would love to see Flo from Progressive insurance on tv selling health insurance!

She's the Lucille Ball of 2012

[StillwaterTownie]

Originally Posted by wade52

Health insurance needs to go the way of the buggy whip industry. It adds no value in the health care equation. It's morphed into a giant game that favors health insurance CEOs and board members and leaves policyholders holding the bag.

Oh, you believe in health care through bankruptcy?