Trayvon Martin Case Updates: 2 Judges Recuse, "graphic pictures" of Zimmerman's Injuries, Bond set at $150K (parade, lawyers)
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You're fragmenting the evidence again. And, yes, if you started the fight with verbally threatening language, you are guilty and you can't use SYG as a defense.
You can't use SYG as a defense, but you could still use "self-defense". But more importantly, if I called you an idiot and you punched me in the face, and that was the end of the altercation, and then the police showed up. Which one of us do you think would be going to jail?
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People cannot go out and verbally provoke someone to attack them, then shoot them, and claim SYG. If people could do that, what an easy way for someone to kill someone they hated, or someone they felt had stolen from them, or someone they didn't want around anymore, etc., etc.
I never said Zimmerman verbally provoked anyone. It was just an example. And verbal provocation is a weird subject anyway. You can't use "fighting words" and "harass" people, according to the Supreme Court. But you most certainly can use words that others might take offense to, and not expect recourse.
For instance, if you cut me off in traffic and I looked over at you and called you an idiot. I would have committed no crime. Nor would that generally be considered fighting words or harassment. And if you got out of your car and started attacking me and I ended up shooting you, I can guarantee you that I would not be convicted of a crime.
Fighting words and provocation tend to be based more around harassment and intent to provoke. Basically, I can't follow you around calling you chicken and daring you to punch me. And telling you that I banged your sister, and that your mom gives great head. That would be me trying to provoke a fight.
To pretend that no one could ever say anything that might offend another person, otherwise they would be allowed to attack us, would be to pretend that we don't actually have any freedom of speech at all.
As for the Zimmerman case. My point was simply that, one thing is a crime and another is not. Following someone is not a crime, unless maybe it was intended to provoke a crime. Calling someone a name isn't a crime, unless maybe if it was intended to provoke a crime. On the other hand, Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch, who had called the police to report a suspicious character. It is quite a stretch to insist that he had intentions to provoke Martin into a fight by following him. Especially since he lost sight of Martin and stopped moving for a time.
According to the Sanford Police investigation in a report dated March 13
"The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement, or conversely, if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog in an effort to dispel each party's concern," the report says. "There is no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity at the time of the encounter."
Interesting that Trayvon had been living in that community for a week. I didn't know that until tonight.
A police report concluded that at the time he was confronted by Zimmerman, Trayvon "was in fact generally running in the direction of where he was staying as a guest in the neighborhood."
Zimmerman had reported "suspicious persons, all young black males" to police on three previous occasions in 2011, the reports said.
According to record checks, all of Zimmerman's suspicious person calls while residing in the Retreat neighborhood have identified Black males as the subjects," the report said."
ah-ha. Therefore the continued investigation by the FBI regarding a possible hate crime. And we will not know whether or not they have come up with evidence to make such a charge until the state case is finished. If acquitted, then, IF the FBI has anything, they will come in with a federal charge.
Wow, Zimmerman has certainly, at the very least, made a mess of his life at this point.
And that would be for the jury to decide....was Zimmerman's intent to "protect" the neighborhood so zealous that he provoked an incident with an innocent person who was a guest on the property because Zimmerman didn't take the time to safely deal with the issue? Was Zimmerman paranoid, and therefore provoked the incident? What, if anything, did Zimmerman say to Trayvon which provoked him to hit Zimmerman, if he struck the first blow? Yes, those are things which can be brought out when testing Zimmerman's credibility, then the argument can be made at closing as to Zimmerman's state of mind before, during, and after the incident.
If you fragment the evidence into little tiny isolated behaviors, you distort the incident.
Look. The problem with your questions is that none necessarily point to a crime, nor can they even be answered.
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Originally Posted by FancyFeast5000
Was Zimmerman's intent to "protect" the neighborhood so zealous that he provoked an incident with an innocent person who was a guest on the property because Zimmerman didn't take the time to safely deal with the issue?
Provoke how? By keeping an eye on him then asking him why he was there?
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Originally Posted by FancyFeast5000
Was Zimmerman paranoid, and therefore provoked the incident?
Is being paranoid a crime now? On what evidence anyway? That he called roughly once a week to the police about suspicious persons in the neighborhood? How often exactly should the neighborhood watch be calling the police anyway? Since, you know, they aren't supposed to lift a finger to actually stop a crime, and have to wait several minutes for the police to actually show up.
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Originally Posted by FancyFeast5000
What, if anything, did Zimmerman say to Trayvon which provoked him to hit Zimmerman, if he struck the first blow?
And this is simply impossible to know. The only person who could know is Trayvon, and he is dead.
I do realize that it will eventually go to trial and a jury will find him guilty or innocent, and all the facts will come out and in proper order. But, I just do not see how Zimmerman could possibly be found guilty of anything but stupidity. His lawyer would have to be completely incompetent, or the jury would have to be incredibly biased. For a jury to get a conviction, it requires a unanimous verdict. Do you really believe that twelve people will all unanimously find Zimmerman guilty based on the evidence?
I mean, its just preposterous to believe so. Just like it is preposterous to believe that Zimmerman went out looking to kill Trayvon. If one has an impartial and rational mind anyway.
It was just a sad situation, and it should be an example on how to avoid these kinds of situations in the future. Whether it be the very serious situation with young black and hispanic men wearing saggy jeans and hoodies. The move to physical violence. The following of other people in the dark.
As they always say, an armed society is a polite society. It doesn't mean that innocent people won't ever get shot. But rather, that people will make a more conscious attempt to take into consideration other peoples feelings before making decisions. Which tends to remind people to be more polite. Because otherwise, you might get shot.
I wish Trayvon hadn't have been shot. But, I don't have much sympathy for the kid. He was trying too hard to be a thug. You can see it is his dress, his demeanor, his speech. His drug use, his suspension from school, his comments on social networking sites, etc.
Zimmerman's life is completely changed forever, regardless of if he goes to prison or not. I think the attention to the case can be a positive thing, as long as we can use it as a tool for change for the better, rather than using it for nothing but divisiveness and vengeance.
I tend to agree with Geraldo Rivera and Thomas Sowell on this issue, and not the media and liberals, who do a disservice to everyone by making a mockery of the real issues in this case.
Last edited by Redshadowz; 05-22-2012 at 11:59 PM..
ah-ha. Therefore the continued investigation by the FBI regarding a possible hate crime. And we will not know whether or not they have come up with evidence to make such a charge until the state case is finished. If acquitted, then, IF the FBI has anything, they will come in with a federal charge.
Wow, Zimmerman has certainly, at the very least, made a mess of his life at this point.
What's interesting to me is that the police pointed out that GZ not only should have stayed in his car and waited for the police, but that he could have simply identified himself and calmly explained to TM why he was following him. I've been saying that on this board for 2 months. There was one point in the 911 call that he said "He's staring right at me." Why didn't he call out of his car "I'm with the Neighborhood Watch. Just checking to make sure everything's okay. Where are you going?" If he didn't want to handle the "suspicious" person in a professional manner, he should have just waited for the police. Following a person in the dark isn't normal behavior, and anyone would feel threatened and become defensive, especially a 17 year old.
You talk about setting the wheels in motion. Yet, you ignore the wheels that were set in motion by Martin. You keep forgetting that Martin was giving Zimmerman a pretty brutal beating. I've gotten in many fights in the past. Zimmerman got beat pretty good. His nose was swolen as hell, and he had several cuts on the back of his head that blood had been streaming from. As well as many knots on his head where he had obviously taken some kind of impact.
Once I slipped on some small, round gravel or pebbles on a big city sidewalk, fell, broke my toe, sprained my wrist, scraped my elbow, and even had scratches on my face and a black eye because when I fell I ended up on my side and the side of my face hit the sidewalk. I had blood running down my face. I certainly felt like I'd been mugged. My injuries were more severe than Zimmerman's IMO. I certainly went to the hospital and had x-rays, etc., and I was in pain to the point that they gave me pain medication for a couple of days. However, most of my injuries were pretty well healed within a week; the black eye was gone within a couple days. The long term injury was the broken toe.
I find it hard to believe that Zimmerman, with a "likely broken nose" did not experience a lot of pain after the adrenaline wore off. I also find it hard to believe that he was getting a brutal beating, as I've had my own encounters with a sidewalk and was just fine. Also didn't feel like I was on the brink of death when the side of my head and face hit the sidewalk. It hurt, I didn't think I was going to die, and yet I certainly wanted medical reassurance regarding those injuries and I went to hospital directly after it happened.
Well, I'm 57 years old and I have never been attacked and I'll bet I never will be and I'm certainly not going to spend the rest of my life worrying that it's going to happen.
I am also a single woman living in a very rural area - there are four homes/farms (besides mine) within a mile of me. The back of my property borders national forest with miles and miles and miles of woods and logging roads and clearcuts. I don't lock my doors and I leave the keys in the ignitions of my vehicles (I do have a gate across my driveway).
WHY is everybody so freakin' paranoid that they think they have to go into a 7-11 store ARMED? I swear, it's like you all are HOPING for a confrontation - which could be exactly the type of mentality that caused the death of a teenage boy.
Look. The problem with your questions is that none necessarily point to a crime, nor can they even be answered.
Provoke how? By keeping an eye on him then asking him why he was there?
Is being paranoid a crime now? On what evidence anyway? That he called roughly once a week to the police about suspicious persons in the neighborhood? How often exactly should the neighborhood watch be calling the police anyway? Since, you know, they aren't supposed to lift a finger to actually stop a crime, and have to wait several minutes for the police to actually show up.
And this is simply impossible to know. The only person who could know is Trayvon, and he is dead.
I do realize that it will eventually go to trial and a jury will find him guilty or innocent, and all the facts will come out and in proper order. But, I just do not see how Zimmerman could possibly be found guilty of anything but stupidity. His lawyer would have to be completely incompetent, or the jury would have to be incredibly biased. For a jury to get a conviction, it requires a unanimous verdict. Do you really believe that twelve people will all unanimously find Zimmerman guilty based on the evidence?
I mean, its just preposterous to believe so. Just like it is preposterous to believe that Zimmerman went out looking to kill Trayvon, if one has an impartial and rational mind anyway.
You are arguing your own bias. That's why those things are "preposterous" to you.
Wait and see how the evidence is presented, what the State's theory is, see what evidence the state has which you don't know about at this point, THEN give us your opinion about biased the jury may be. Btw, you do know that during jury selection, very experienced attorneys and the court, screen for just such biases in each juror, don't you?
Again, you're fragmenting the evidence and not looking at the picture as a whole. Lawyers don't do that. And a "story" is presented to the jury, based of the evidence both sides have discovered during their investigations in preparation for trial, and within the Rules of Criminal Procedure.
Obviously, NOT ALL THE EVIDENCE has been made public at this point.
This is a definition of 2nd degree murder in Florida:
2) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree
RedShadowz, the state has to prove the above elements ^^^ of second degree murder. That's what they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. "When perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another"..........(maybe following an unarmed teenager whom he had profiled in his call to the police and disregarding the dispatcher when he told Zimmerman that they didn't need him to follow Trayvon)........."and evincing a deparved mind regardless of human life".......(could that go to Zimmerman's state of mind, his past relationships and statements, etc.,etc.)
What do you think the State would have to look for in order to prove those elements of second degree murder? And we're not even talking about manslaughter here, which is a lesser included.
Last edited by FancyFeast5000; 05-23-2012 at 12:21 AM..
Reason: added link and statute excerpt
Once I slipped on some small, round gravel or pebbles on a big city sidewalk, fell, broke my toe, sprained my wrist, scraped my elbow, and even had scratches on my face and a black eye because when I fell I ended up on my side and the side of my face hit the sidewalk. I had blood running down my face. I certainly felt like I'd been mugged. My injuries were more severe than Zimmerman's IMO. I certainly went to the hospital and had x-rays, etc., and I was in pain to the point that they gave me pain medication for a couple of days. However, most of my injuries were pretty well healed within a week; the black eye was gone within a couple days. The long term injury was the broken toe.
You sound like a woman honestly. And you probably are.
Zimmerman had a broken nose, which means he more than likely was bleeding from his nose to some degree. And from the pictures that were taken, he had bled quite a bit from the back of his head. There are many other marks on the side of his face as well.
I've gotten into a lot of fights, and most of the time I don't bleed much, if at all. Except maybe a little from a lip if i get popped in the mouth. How many people that you know of that have gotten into fights, come out bleeding as much as Zimmerman? And in multiple places? The back of Zimmerman's head has several cuts on it, not just one.
The reality is, the fight had been going on for quite some time. Which you can tell from the 911 calls. And in that time, Zimmerman took many impacts to his face and head.
To equate a fall to someone repeatedly assaulting you, and trying to pretend one is equal to the other, is kind of silly, isn't it?
I mean, let me stand over you for a minute, punching at you, and slamming your head around, then tell me you wouldn't start to become fearful for your life. I'm 6'2" 200 lbs, if that helps paint a picture.
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Originally Posted by FancyFeast5000
Wait and see how the evidence is presented, what the State's theory is, see what evidence the state has which you don't know about at this point, THEN give us your opinion about biased the jury may be. Btw, you do know that during jury selection, very experienced attorneys and the court, screen for just such biases in each juror, don't you?
I'm going to ask a serious question, and I would like a serious answer.
In the most recent Rasmussen poll, nearly twice as many people think Zimmerman is innocent as those who think he is guilty. It is much harder to prove guilt than innocence in this case. Do you really believe that the state of Florida stands any chance whatsoever in this case? And do you really believe that twelve jurors will really be swayed to convict Zimmerman?
I mean, the only way I see it happening, is by an all-black jury. But it would be hard to define that as justice.
Compare what Trayvon Martin looked like to George Zimmerman on the night of his tragic death to the picture the MSM continually spread around in their shameless attempt to influence public opinion against Zimmermann without giving a chance for all the facts to come out.
Whether Mr. Zimmermann or Trayvon Martin was more responsible for the events that led to Trayvon's unneccesary death is irrelevant(except for in the justice system). The MSM is guilty of manipulating the information the public received in order to produce a bias. They shouldn't be taken seriously ever again.
I agree that MSM skews all their news, but you can't just up and shoot someone because they look intimidating in their hoodie. The Zimmerdork guy was also told by a 911 dispatcher not to confront Martin...but he didn't heed that warning. I don't know the full story here but I think Zimmerdouche needs a lot of jail time to think about his actions, and the fact that he carelessly, and negligently killed a young person. And why was Zimmerspaz carrying a gun for a neighborhood watch program !?
Like I said, I dunno the whole story, just my two cents.
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