Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Social issues come first. You can't be a legitimate "fiscal conservative" or "small government conservative" while ignoring social issues.
I can and I am; I'm a pro limited gov't conservative while largely ignoring social issues. You can argue that it's wrongheaded, ill-advised, etc. but I don't know how you can say it's impossible to take that stance.
Quote:
Spending is out of control because our society is crumbling.
Spending is out of control because of rent seeking activities. You might argue that, say, spending on WIC stems from out-of-wedlock birth and thus from immorality, but it's tough to argue that the Alaska airport w/ no planes, was a result of general immorality. Alaska's $75.5 million airport to nowhere
Or the 5 tax funded pro-sports stadiums of Seattle, starting w/ the now-imploded Kindgdom, thru the soon-to-be-built new NBA stadium. No connection to religion or morality there.
In almost every case, if you 'follow the money' you will find out why overspending happens. Someone is is making $$$$. In only a limited number of cases does irreligiosity provide an explanation, and even then I think you will invariably find an even stronger 'follow the money' explanation.
These social conservatives say the country is falling apart, yet our crime rate is down to 1960s levels. Crime has been decreasing for the last 20 years. Looks like we're on the right track when it comes to social issues.
Clinton set a new standard. Everyone knew, for example, Kennedy was fooling around. There was at least a pretense of morality.
Clinton said "it's ok to lie."
That's worse than lying us into war where 100,000+ Iraqis died, 3,000+ US military died, 13,000+ US military were seriously wounded, we destroyed the infrastructure of Iraq, cost the taxpayers trillions of dollars is not as bad as Clinton's lie about a personal affair?
You're saying that Nixon & the plumbers was not as bad as lying about consensual sex about adults.
Besides being off topic, all I can say about your comment is what a load of crap.
These social conservatives say the country is falling apart, yet our crime rate is down to 1960s levels. Crime has been decreasing for the last 20 years. Looks like we're on the right track when it comes to social issues.
Social issues come first. You can't be a legitimate "fiscal conservative" or "small government conservative" while ignoring social issues.
Actually, ignoring social issues makes it a whole lot easier to be a LEGITIMATE "small government conservative". By definition, a small government conservative wants LESS government intrusion in people's lives. They don't want a whole lot of money wasted on departments created to police people's behavior. You social conservatives always say stuff like "guns dont kill people, blah, blah blah." But this "personal freedom" philosophy only pertains to issues that you deem worthy. In all other issues people are not to be trusted with their own lives. It is up to big government to look after us. Social conservatism is very hypocritical.
That's worse than lying us into war where 100,000+ Iraqis died, 3,000+ US military died, 13,000+ US military were seriously wounded, we destroyed the infrastructure of Iraq, cost the taxpayers trillions of dollars is not as bad as Clinton's lie about a personal affair?
You're saying that Nixon & the plumbers was not as bad as lying about consensual sex about adults.
Besides being off topic, all I can say about your comment is what a load of crap.
And your answer is to take us even further off-topic? What was the "lie" that led us into war? We now know that everyone, from the intel agencies of other nations such as Britain & France, to Saddam's own senior people, believed that he still had a stash of WMD.
From Cobra II:
Quote:
[in March 2003] Saddam told his military "told the coalition for eight days and leave the rest to him," recalled Abdallah al-Mullah Huwaysh , the minister of military industrialization. THe mysterious order came as a relief to some of Saddam's military officers. Despite Saddam's earlier revelations that Iraq was bereft of WMD, they concluded that Saddam must have a secret supply of prohibited weapons after all, and that defense of Iraq would not depend entirely on their overmatched, ill-motivated troops."
From Cobra II a comprehensive book about the invasion & occupation by Gen Bernard Trainor & NYT reporter Michael Gordon, (p. 190).
There were no "Bush's lies" about WMD. None. Entirely debunked. Yet this lefty meme will continue to meander thru lefty minds like a chicken running w/o head. This chicken, however, continues to run years (now almost a decade) later after losing its head.
Now there is some real "crumbling of society." I blame the public schools.
This year's election campaign was mostly about social issues. Discussions about economic/fiscal issues were discussed from a social impact point as well...programs cut, war against XXX.
The majority of voters were more concerned with what the government will do with social issues vs fiscal issues.
With 60% of Americans receiving something from the government, one can see that social issues and the threat of their progam being cut was the easy way to campaign. Fear gets the most responses from an apathetic society and that fear has to be about something directly affecting them.
Social issues come first. You can't be a legitimate "fiscal conservative" or "small government conservative" while ignoring social issues....
All politics is morality, and for most people, morality is derived from religious faith or at least strengthened by it. America's government problem is at heart a religious problem.
In the end, government either supports family, faith and community or it works against it. A pretended "neutrality" always ends in hostility. Government always has been and always will be involved in the social issues. The only question is: on whose side?
Back to the topic. Notice that your approach makes morality subject to the whims of the electorate, unless you believe also in a jettisoning of democratic government. What if the electorate decides that polygamy is a fine upstanding and moral practice? Or arranged marriages, with the state deciding who will be man & wife (or maybe man & man, or wife & wife). Then with gov't holding sway over 'social issues,' that is what becomes the law of the land.
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
8,852 posts, read 10,458,803 times
Reputation: 6670
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim
Social issues come first. You can't be a legitimate "fiscal conservative" or "small government conservative" while ignoring social issues.
A moral society of strong marriages, extended families, and flourishing churches needs a much smaller safety net than an amoral society of self-directed individuals pursuing their "dreams" or private interests. That's how our grandparents survived the Great Depression. This generation wouldn't last a month.
Spending is out of control because our society is crumbling. Regulations are out of control because people can't be trusted. The growth of government is out of control because Americans no longer promote the common good in their own communities. Etc.
All politics is morality, and for most people, morality is derived from religious faith or at least strengthened by it. America's government problem is at heart a religious problem.
In the end, government either supports family, faith and community or it works against it. A pretended "neutrality" always ends in hostility. Government always has been and always will be involved in the social issues. The only question is: on whose side?
Even if that were so, whose religion and morality (Catholics, Fundamentalists, liberal Episcopalians, Hindus, Wiccans, reformed Jews....)? And BTW, how would we get around the little matter of the Establishment Clause in the Constitution?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
