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I'm a union member in my current job and I hate it. Yes, thanks to the union I have ultra cheap health insurance, but the rest of the union "perks" are garbage for a worker such as myself.
The huge downside to the union is how most of the energy is devoted to protecting the laziest bunch of slackers that I have ever had to work with. And the workers with the best skills and work ethics are ignored as it's all about seniority in regards to promotions and who gets the hours when it's slow. It's really disgusting.
And no, I don't consider any product made by union workers anywhere to be of better quality than a non-union product. And no, the union was unable to persuade me to vote for Obama in the last two election cycles. I usually vote the opposite of whatever candidate they support.
That is the problem with unions, there are pros and cons to them but at the end of the day its a lot of money being wasted. Unions really waste a lot of funds too and squeeze states.
That is the problem with unions, there are pros and cons to them but at the end of the day its a lot of money being wasted. Unions really waste a lot of funds too and squeeze states.
What are you talking about. How do they waste funds.
To me; Unions are just like the old price fixers in industry in the 1900. No price fixing should be allowed. The job market should be open to anyone who can do the job.
Unions came to be because of unfair work demands by employers. There was a vacuum where the employed person did not have a voice , a say as one person standing was not listened to by the Corporation.......In a more perfect world the need for workers could set the price paid !(wages) ,as when there were lots of jobs and few people to fill them could alone drive up labor cost. In a world where lack of jobs,of demand , the price of labor should seek it's fair demand, hence supply and demand politics would enter the picture along with what the Company HAD to pay to get workers.
The problem came to be that there was no security for the worker who could be fired on demand with a slow marketplace, then rehired as business came back . This practice exists today all across the world, one of the reasons for independent contractors where there once were employees . You ask corporate America if they would like to fire all workers being paid wages and rehire them as Contractors and you will get a definite no. That's the problem the company wants to have a fixed labor force and thru Unions they get that , but there is a cost, a demand for equal pay can rase the cost of doing business. They only want contractors for the excess, the temps. the demand for workers. This is why contractors have a hard time getting business loans, credit cards , home loans. Without a guarantee that the person applying for a loan can pay back with interest, the finance people would stop lending. It just does not work on a large scale very well , the people need some security, unemployment insurance controlled by the government almost always enters when there is no Union .
All this said about Unions ,they seem to work the best in specific industries. In reality Unions have been on the decline for years. Today they make up a small portion of the work force . Corporations such a Wall mart, the worlds largest employer operate without A Union , they pay the workers less than a living wage and leave the Government to pick up the difference in order for the worker to survive.. By not paying what they should, those extra profits go to management, stockholders, and just make the rich richer on the backs of everyone else in the form of taxes. If any company should be unionized it's Wallmart, who have grown too large that they set prices for what goods sell for. Unions should be there in the worker world to actually steady costs and create a level playing field for everyone.
Per OP question - I am a libertarian, and I don't hate unions. What I hate is forced participation in them, and a government who takes sides with them, thus lending that forced participation the force of the government's monopoly on law, force and violence.
I also hate the theory of the public sector union, because in the collective bargaining scenario, the union of employees bargains with the management, and in the public sector, both entities are actually employees of the taxpayer. So you have a public employee bargaining with another public employee concerning how much public employees should get paid, and the taxpayer employer is nowhere near that bargaining table. This is why it is very common for the benefits, pension funds, etc of public employee unions to go berserk in a very short time, as we see all over the country. Ask two wolves and sheep what's for dinner, and the sheep tends to do poorly in that negotiation.
Here's how I would be solidly apathetic to the union thing:
Private sector - make right to work an amendment to the Constitution, and make it the law in all 50 states. Then, if unions exist in the private sector, the employees and employers all had their say and agreed to them, and employees could come and go as they please without interfering with their career. Also, repeal the Davis-Bacon Act, ending federal and state government favoritism for union labor.
Public sector - either abolish all public employee unions entirely, or make every new union contract a ballot initiative, with published facts about every detail of the contract sent to every home in the affected voting region at least 3 months prior to the ballot day. That way, the union is actually bargaining with their actual employer, not another of their public employee buddies who is laughing with them all the way to the bank.
Make those couple changes, and you've heard your last peep out of me on unions. Don't make them, fine, but explain to me why these ideas require force for people to accept...if the ideas are so darn good for everyone.
Per OP question - I am a libertarian, and I don't hate unions. What I hate is forced participation in them, and a government who takes sides with them, thus lending that forced participation the force of the government's monopoly on law, force and violence.
I also hate the theory of the public sector union, because in the collective bargaining scenario, the union of employees bargains with the management, and in the public sector, both entities are actually employees of the taxpayer. So you have a public employee bargaining with another public employee concerning how much public employees should get paid, and the taxpayer employer is nowhere near that bargaining table. This is why it is very common for the benefits, pension funds, etc of public employee unions to go berserk in a very short time, as we see all over the country. Ask two wolves and sheep what's for dinner, and the sheep tends to do poorly in that negotiation.
Here's how I would be solidly apathetic to the union thing:
Private sector - make right to work an amendment to the Constitution, and make it the law in all 50 states. Then, if unions exist in the private sector, the employees and employers all had their say and agreed to them, and employees could come and go as they please without interfering with their career. Also, repeal the Davis-Bacon Act, ending federal and state government favoritism for union labor.
Public sector - either abolish all public employee unions entirely, or make every new union contract a ballot initiative, with published facts about every detail of the contract sent to every home in the affected voting region at least 3 months prior to the ballot day. That way, the union is actually bargaining with their actual employer, not another of their public employee buddies who is laughing with them all the way to the bank.
Make those couple changes, and you've heard your last peep out of me on unions. Don't make them, fine, but explain to me why these ideas require force for people to accept...if the ideas are so darn good for everyone.
All you need is to read my post for most of your answers. In most cases it is not legal for a Government worker to strike.consider this , why not just make all Unions against the law? For,if what you said that the Union and the Government are together in a forced " tax" on the public. There is little difference in the private sector, unions bring higher cost to everyone in the form of paying more for, say a car, based on over paid workers right ?..... That is the problem with those of you and others that proclaim they are Libertarians, when they are really not in reality. You don't have to go far to see this in public service......Rand Paul. I know his dad is not happy how he has handled things ether, and He is "more" Libertarian than about any out there. It just will not work in reality, when the playing field is run by politicians. I am a Liberal first order, and in many cases I agree with the Libertarian ideals., but, you can not pick and choose , once you do and then the wheels come off the Libertarian wagon.
Just wondering but what is the with the hate I see on this board from conservatives towards the unions ? I know a few union guys who vote republican but for the life of me I really don't see why. Are there any conservative/republican that can give me an actual answer without spinning off into the whole unions fund dem garbage and just give me an honest answer ? If you are so against unions and blame many of them for destroying businesses why then won't you also hold accountable the ceo's or other top execs who made more than any of the unions workers and who bankrupted the company giving themselves extravagant bonuses.
What if instead of the unions supporting and giving money to mainly dems what if they gave money to republicans instead ? Would you still dislike them so much ?
I can specifically tell you why I don't like most unions.
I think people should earn their jobs and promotions through direct action. The union I was directly exposed to considered seniority to the main determination of both job retention and promotions. They felt it should be last hired, first fired and the person with the most seniority should be the person who received the promotion. Additionally, they were not about creating a partnership between the employees and the company, they were about retaining the most jobs and increasing pay no matter what.
Two things I directly saw/experienced.
1. We had a young guy who had been there about 6 months who busted his tail and was always trying to learn new skills. During a downturn, we were forced to lay him off due to the union when he was a harder worker, smarter and more driven than some of the clock punchers with horrible attitudes who had been there for 5 or 6 years.
2. We had an important order get tied up. When it was finally ready to ship and the hotshot was there and ready to go, it couldn't get loaded on the lowboy. We had two guys in shipping who were designated forklift operators. One was out sick that day and the other was at lunch. We had a guy who was also forklift certified who wasn't in shipping but was part of the manufacturing group and moved large molds from machine to machine. He was asked to come load the order on the trailer and immediately the union rep told him not to do it. The rep claimed that if he could act as a "default" shipper, it might give us reason to one day lay off one of the two shipping guys. It was explained this was a very critical order for a key customer and it had to immediately go out. That didn't matter to the union and the order didn't make it out in time to get to the port. The customer was pretty ticked off, but luckily we didn't lose the account. Had we lost that account, it would have been pretty much guaranteed that we would have had to make cuts and layoff people. The union was so stuck in their ways that they'd rather risk hurting both the company and other workers than make an exception.
Are there any conservative/republican that can give me an actual answer without spinning off into the whole unions fund dem garbage and just give me an honest answer ?
In a nutshell, unions restrict employers' demand for labor, which slows job growth. If union wages are inelastic employers respond by hiring fewer workers. Wages should be determined by demand and supply only.
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