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The post was edited to reflect 1/5th. the norway murder rate including all their citizens is .6 per 100,000
The USA white offender murder rate is 4.5 or 5 depending on the year. Likely went down recently. So
1/5th is a conservative estimate.
What sort of argument style is this? Hitting yourself in the head with a hammer fewer times than the idiot next to you means you are exceptionally bright? 21 years for mass murder is idiotic in it of itself.
Doesnt Japan have the death penalty and low murder rates...
The difference is in Japan (and to an extent Norway) society is self policing. Shame still exists, honour still exists and society is somewhat cohesive, with community spirit. You see it here in england too. When a little girl went missing in rural wales, the community came together and looked for her for weeks. In selfish London, no one gives a damn when a child goes missing.
American society is corrupt, balkanized and selfish. No one gives a damn about what family honour means.
And what's funny is that those societies are less religious than the US, but every other right wing nut keeps saying that Lanza happened because there is no prayer in schools and other nonsense.
The reason that the Death Penalty doesn't truly work in this country has less to do with the punishment and more to do with the legal system. You can be convicted of Death and still sit on Death Row for years while appealing and appealing away.
Tried, convicted, you have 90 days to appeal. On day 91 you are dead. Simple and extend that to 3 time violent felons, multiple (2+) convicted child molesters and violent rapists.
How about you stop cherry picking points to argue?
Sure, judges are easily "hoodwinked"....
The difference between Charles Manson being refused parole and Andreas Brevik is apples and oranges.
I clearly pointed out the differences by which court judge are appointed in both countries and their philosophies in rehabilitation.
Cherry picking that your initial post was utterly wrong and that you've been trying to run away comparing the two cotries ever since it got pointed out to you that Norway gets better results?
And your basis for thinking judges are easily hoodwinked is? I mean on one hand we have the crime stats of two countries, on the other hand we have the word of one guy on the interntet who say they are easily hoodwinked, but don't back that up.
You keep saying that Charles Manson to Breivik is not a good analogy, yet Ive presented an argument for it in fact being a pretty fair analogy. Are you going to present an argument, or is it going to be another u-turn?
Speaking of which, have you made up your mid yet? Is Norway and the USA comparable?
Cherry picking that your initial post was utterly wrong and that you've been trying to run away comparing the two cotries ever since it got pointed out to you that Norway gets better results?
Norway gets better results because there's less criminals going for murder to begin with.
They are still releasing drug addicts that go into society and stay drug addicts... and that is fine. I have no problem with that. If the US did that with ending the war on drugs... they would also probably drastically lower the murder rate.
The bottom line is this... Lanza would have seen the street in Norway after his crime.
Quote:
And your basis for thinking judges are easily hoodwinked is? I mean on one hand we have the crime stats of two countries, on the other hand we have the word of one guy on the interntet who say they are easily hoodwinked, but don't back that up.
I think the problem is the terminology you are using..
"Hoodwinked" assumes that a person is fooled... in this case Brevins fooling a judge into being "sane". Well, who knows? That isn't what I am arguing here.
What I AM arguing (a premise which you have ignored....AGAIN) is that the philosophy that Norway and it's a-alikes hold is that criminals CAN be rehabilitated and released back into society. So they place emphasis on this.
Combined with the FACT that judges in Norway hold a lifetime seat and do not have to play politics to to be reelected...means two things...
They tend to lean towards reconciliation AND will clear somebody without a thought to consequence in the event of recidivism... Because there is no consequence
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You keep saying that Charles Manson to Breivik is not a good analogy, yet Ive presented an argument for it in fact being a pretty fair analogy. Are you going to present an argument, or is it going to be another u-turn?
It's not a good analogy....based on what I presented to you above (which was already presented in the thread previously.....)
If I felt the urgency to make you drink any further....I'd have to drown you.
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Speaking of which, have you made up your mid yet? Is Norway and the USA comparable?
What about all the other variables. Apart from Oslo, there are no really big cities in Norway. Sure there are other cities, but they'd be considered pretty small by american standards...Rural areas tend to have lower crime after all, big cities, not so much, regardless of racial demographics.
For petty crime, probably. For violent crime, particularly murder, not necessarily.
In 2011 the white murder rate (by victim) per 100k in Chicago was 2.4, New York City was 1.6, and United States as a whole 3.3. Oslo is far lower than any of these.
Norway gets better results because there's less criminals going for murder to begin with.
By any measure, that is a better result!
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Originally Posted by Hot_Handz
The bottom line is this... Lanza would have seen the street in Norway after his crime.
Nope. He'd have had the same chance of seeing the streets as Charles Manson do. I don't know what makes this so hard to comprehend for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot_Handz
"Hoodwinked" assumes that a person is fooled... in this case Brevins fooling a judge into being "sane". Well, who knows? That isn't what I am arguing here.
What I AM arguing (a premise which you have ignored....AGAIN) is that the philosophy that Norway and it's a-alikes hold is that criminals CAN be rehabilitated and released back into society. So they place emphasis on this.
Combined with the FACT that judges in Norway hold a lifetime seat and do not have to play politics to to be reelected...means two things...
They tend to lean towards reconciliation AND will clear somebody without a thought to consequence in the event of recidivism... Because there is no consequence?
There is no consequence of releasing an unrepentant mass murderer into the population? Have you thought that one through at all?
And clearly, the fact that there are laws ensuring that Breivik has to convince a panel of judges that he is not dangerous any more demonstrates that the philosphy of Norway incorprates the fact that not every criminal can be rehabilitated. I mean, you are arguing the existence of a setup that clearly doesn't exist. He got a sentence that shows that its considered probable that hell never be fit for release.
In any case, it seems you are under the impression that appointed judges will have the final word. Do you know anything about how these things are decided?
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Originally Posted by Hot_Handz
No they aren't...[comparable]
Now, what is your point?
But you made a thread comparing the two. The title of the thread is "If Adam Lanza lived in Norway..." Suddenly they are not comparable when it turns out that Norway gets better results?
Anyway, if Adam Lanza lived in Norway, the notion that he could get a gun wouldn't have occurred to him, and he would have ended up throwing rocks at the school or some other release of rage. Provided the school system didn't pick him up sooner. You probably wanted something like "if he commited his crime in Norway."
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