Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Unless there was a way to know that it was the vaccine that kept people from getting the flu, any other stats are useless.
Whether my system creates antibodies via a vaccine or the actually illness doesn't matter to me, the fact is I would rather not be ill and I've never become ill from any vaccine I've ever had. Or any injection of any kind, and I've had plenty. I spent 12 years taking allergy shots to desensitize my system from things that would have made my life unbearable. No, it didn't 100% CURE me but it took care of about 85% and that's good enough.
There is a science to it, we aren't just injecting things into people and pretending it does something. IT DOES. We DO know it. We also know it's not 100% effective for everyone against everything. Getting the flu is a chance I didn't want to take this year so in addition to good nutrition and sanitary practices I decided to up my odds by getting vaccinated too. Why does anyone even argure about this? It's like black and white with some folks.
Hysteria? Yes! There has been a lot of it on this thread. I was not talking about it coming from the CDC, I was talking about in regards to people on this thread telling others things like, "don't come to my BF's daughters town you unvaccinated idiots"
I have not diminished the work that YOU do. I respect traditional western medicine. It has a lot of positives, but I also see value in other fields of healthcare and one particular poster who happens to be a nurse and who was the person I was talking to has continually referred to these other fields in many other threads as quackery. I do not think that a Dr. knows everything about health, nor does a nurse or a naturopath or a chiropractor, etc. , nor does the CDC! I find the statements like, "What are YOUR credentials in the medical field?" to be very condescending. Being a medical professional in any field does not make one the end all be all expert on all things health related. I get my information from many sources, including the CDC, Dr's, nurses, nutritionists, naturopaths, etc. I'm not a one source type of gal. I can't say the same for everyone contributing to this thread.
The only thing that I have said consistently is that people should be able to decide for themselves what they choose to inject into their bodies. Not once have I said or even insinuated that the flu vaccine is poison. I have no idea why you are attributing that to me. Just because one person who doesn't want the vaccine says that, it does not mean that all people who choose to forgo the vaccine believe that.
I NEVER called you an idiot and I told you that was a joke. I thought it would have been obvious, but I must have been overestimating. I don't think I know everything about health care, but I do know a lot about vaccines. I had to laugh when I read that the Diane Rehm show had an endocrinologist on badmouthing flu vaccine. An endocrinologist? Was that the best she could do? Probably, because the only doctors opposing immunizations are those who don't work in communicable disease. The endo probably hasn't seen a case of a communicable disease since residency!
As Zimbo says, I have spent many years working in pediatrics/immunizations/maternal-child health, as has she. I like to have my information hold up to scientific scrutiny. The information that "flu shots are unnecessary" even if you add caveats like "unless you're high risk, unless this, unless that" is not scientifically based. There is no question about the science behind flu vaccines. I have not used the words quack or quackery in this thread. If I have used those words in previous threads that we have both participated in, well, I am entitled to my opinion, and we were discussing a different topic then.
I still don't think you get the part about being contagious before you have symptoms. Coughing and sneezing are symptoms. The evidence says a person can be contagious for 24 hours before showing any symptoms of the flu. That is, in fact, one reason everyone should get flu shots. We can't shut down society for the flu season. People go to work or otherwise out in public in good faith, they feel fine. The next day, they're down with the flu.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 01-15-2013 at 12:23 PM..
Whether my system creates antibodies via a vaccine or the actually illness doesn't matter to me, the fact is I would rather not be ill and I've never become ill from any vaccine I've ever had. Or any injection of any kind, and I've had plenty. I spent 12 years taking allergy shots to desensitize my system from things that would have made my life unbearable. No, it didn't 100% CURE me but it took care of about 85% and that's good enough.
There is a science to it, we aren't just injecting things into people and pretending it does something. IT DOES. We DO know it. We also know it's not 100% effective for everyone against everything. Getting the flu is a chance I didn't want to take this year so in addition to good nutrition and sanitary practices I decided to up my odds by getting vaccinated too. Why does anyone even argure about this? It's like black and white with some folks.
I agree. I grew up playing outside in the dirt. Your system cannot protect you later if it has not been invaded by germs earlier and allowed you to build up some defenses.
Not the "dirt theory" again! That theory has been widely misinterpreted. You will not have antibodies to the flu unless you have been exposed to the flu virus, either in person or via vaccine.
When vaccines are developed, they check antibody levels for the disease the vaccine is supposed to prevent before the vaccine is given. If a person has no antibody to that particular disease, they give them the vaccine, and check antibody levels again after. If the person has antibodies in response to the vaccine, the vaccine is effective in producing antibodies. My nursing class was involved in this procedure when the rubella vaccine was being developed.
I NEVER called you an idiot and I told you that was a joke. I thought it would have been obvious, but I must have been overestimating.
I was condensing a couple of hysterical comments from a few different posters into one sentence. I was not directly quoting you. Jokes are usually funny. I saw no humor in what you said.
Quote:
I don't think I know everything about health care, but I do know a lot about vaccines. I had to laugh when I read that the Diane Rehm show had an endocrinologist on badmouthing flu vaccine. An endocrinologist? Was that the best she could do? Probably, because the only doctors opposing immunizations are those who don't work in communicable disease. The endo probably hasn't seen a case of a communicable disease since residency!
If you admit to not knowing everything then why badmouth people in health fields that you are unfamiliar with? Why would you assume that your particular area is the only area that has the answers?
Quote:
As Zimbo says, I have spent many years working in pediatrics/immunizations/maternal-child health, as has she. I like to have my information hold up to scientific scrutiny. The information that "flu shots are unnecessary" even if you add caveats like "unless you're high risk, unless this, unless that" is not scientifically based. There is no question about the science behind flu vaccines. I have not used the words quack or quackery in this thread. If I have used those words in previous threads that we have both participated in, well, I am entitled to my opinion, and we were discussing a different topic then.
There are questions about the science of flu shots. You are entitled to your opinion, but so am I. We don't have to agree.
Quote:
I still don't think you get the part about being contagious before you have symptoms. Coughing and sneezing are symptoms. The evidence says a person can be contagious for 24 hours before showing any symptoms of the flu. That is, in fact, one reason everyone should get flu shots. We can't shut down society for the flu season. People go to work or otherwise out in public in good faith, they feel fine. The next day, they're down with the flu.
Pretty sure I do understand the part about being contagious before having symptoms. I've known that for years. I'm not sure why you feel the need to question that repeatedly. I think it's you who misunderstood the meaning of the word, "huge".
I don't believe in flu shots. I don't believe that they work very well and I don't believe that they are healthy. I believe in hand washing, proper nutrition, excercise, adequate sleep, no smoking. I believe in immune boosting with things like Sambucol, Vit C, Vit D. I haven't been sick with flu in at least 20 years. YMMV. If you want a flu shot, get one, but don't tell me what to do with my body. There is no guarantee that you will not catch the flu, even if everyone was vaccinated.
If you don't know how many of those people would not have gotten the flu then the stats aren't really very accurate. Many people who do not get the vaccine do not get the flu.
Who the heck is Gord5467? I googled him and nothing but pages of this supposed email/whatever came up, seems it's been circulating since October. Do people really believe this bogus crap going around the internet?
In fact, the healthy-user effect explained the entire benefit that other researchers were attributing to flu vaccine, suggesting that the vaccine itself might not reduce mortality at all. Jackson’s papers “are beautiful,” says Lone Simonsen, who is a professor of global health at George Washington University, in Washington, D.C., and an internationally recognized expert in influenza and vaccine epidemiology. “They are classic studies in epidemiology, they are so carefully done.”
The results were also so unexpected that many experts simply refused to believe them. Jackson’s papers were turned down for publication in the top-ranked medical journals. One flu expert who reviewed her studies for the Journal of the American Medical Association wrote, “To accept these results would be to say that the earth is flat!” When the papers were finally published in 2006, in the less prominent International Journal of Epidemiology, they were largely ignored by doctors and public-health officials. “The answer I got,” says Jackson, “was not the right answer.”
Quote:
In 2004, vaccine production fell behind, causing a 40 percent drop in immunization rates. Yet mortality did not rise. In addition, vaccine “mismatches” occurred in 1968 and 1997: in both years, the vaccine that had been produced in the summer protected against one set of viruses, but come winter, a different set was circulating. In effect, nobody was vaccinated. Yet death rates from all causes, including flu and the various illnesses it can exacerbate, did not budge.
Quote:
Jefferson has taken a lot of heat just for saying, ‘Here’s the evidence: it’s not very good,’” says Majumdar. “The reaction has been so dogmatic and even hysterical that you’d think he was advocating stealing babies.” Yet while other flu researchers may not like what Jefferson has to say, they cannot ignore the fact that he knows the flu-vaccine literature better than anyone else on the planet. He leads an international team of researchers who have combed through hundreds of flu-vaccine studies. The vast majority of the studies were deeply flawed, says Jefferson. “Rubbish is not a scientific term, but I think it’s the term that applies.”
Not the "dirt theory" again! That theory has been widely misinterpreted. You will not have antibodies to the flu unless you have been exposed to the flu virus, either in person or via vaccine.
Not as misinterpreted as you think, it is believed that kids who are not exposed to germs early or over protective mothers who are making them stay clean all of the time, develop allergies later in life.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
