Thinking of getting FLU shot? (terrorism, declaration, agents, community)
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Suzy, these are not facts .. this is a demonstration of how a wild imagination can ride on the back of extreme rationalization like a crazy cowboy attempting to negotiate the narrow paths of the grand canyon trails on the back of a raging bull. And it can only lead to a very predictable disaster.
The truth is, such isolated instances of deaths under unusual and abnormal circumstances are unlikely to significantly affect the natural statistical death rate of a population that exceeds 300 Million during a short 3-4 month window in time. Given the actual number of possible causes of death, and the multitude of factors and variables that can serve as contributing factors, the simple comparison of statistical numbers of all cause deaths among an isolated minority who have received flu vaccine is totally worthless information, useful only to cherry picking statisticians who wish to create a fantastic tale.
Call me crazy if you must, but I would suggest that the more likely scenario facilitating a significant decline in accidental drownings during the Flu season between the November thru March time frame is more likely a result of having the majority of the countless number of outdoor swimming pools across the country closed for the winter, save for the fortunate folks in San Diego and Miami who may keep theirs open longer.
"Jenin Governor Kadura Musa, 60, died yesterday of a heart attack only a few hours after gunmen shot at his home."
Do you wish to be rational? Perhaps you might want to consider what the likely ratio is between those who die of heart attacks, relative to those who die of the bullet wounds in a drive by shooting event? I would take a wild guess that the bullet is more likely to be the dominate factor ... but it's just the crazy way I think, I suppose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
Not really so far-fetched to think that reducing heart attack risk might reduce the risk you will crash your car, drown, or have a heart attack after any stressful event, is it?
Also, since inflammation is one of the mechanisms that is involved in heart disease, preventing a highly inflammatory event like influenza provides a plausible biologic reason for prevention of flu to reduce heart attack and stroke risk.
No, Suzy .... the basic premise you're promoting here is EXTREMELY far fetched, and that is the kindest definition.
The heart of the matter (pun intended) is that there is no proof whatsoever that flu vaccines even prevent the freaking flu, let alone lead to better cardiac outcomes in vaccine recipients. Your problem (and you are not alone) is that no cockamamie story is too far fetched and absurd for you to consider reasonable. And that's not me saying this .. that's you proving this true in your rationalizations that are in fact, highly irrational.
The real truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth is, that the only evidence that flu vaccines have any beneficial effect at all is in the same statistical hocus pocus used to suggest that vaccines can reduce plane crashes. If you can be convinced of the latter, the former is just a walk in the park.
The heart of the matter (pun intended) is that there is no proof whatsoever that flu vaccines even prevent the freaking flu, let alone lead to better cardiac outcomes in vaccine recipients. Your problem (and you are not alone) is that no cockamamie story is too far fetched and absurd for you to consider reasonable. And that's not me saying this .. that's you proving this true in your rationalizations that are in fact, highly irrational.
The real truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth is, that the only evidence that flu vaccines have any beneficial effect at all is in the same statistical hocus pocus used to suggest that vaccines can reduce plane crashes. If you can be convinced of the latter, the former is just a walk in the park.
Well there's the problem, you believe that flu vaccinations prevent the "freaking flu", when they just give you a higher chance of not getting the "freaking flu".
As to the last bolded statement, that is simply false. There is plenty of empirical evidence stating the benefits of flu vaccination. I think you just don't understand and want to understand it is not 100% effective, I believe this years vaccination is just above 60% effective.
Suzy, these are not facts .. this is a demonstration of how a wild imagination can ride on the back of extreme rationalization like a crazy cowboy attempting to negotiate the narrow paths of the grand canyon trails on the back of a raging bull. And it can only lead to a very predictable disaster.
The truth is, such isolated instances of deaths under unusual and abnormal circumstances are unlikely to significantly affect the natural statistical death rate of a population that exceeds 300 Million during a short 3-4 month window in time. Given the actual number of possible causes of death, and the multitude of factors and variables that can serve as contributing factors, the simple comparison of statistical numbers of all cause deaths among an isolated minority who have received flu vaccine is totally worthless information, useful only to cherry picking statisticians who wish to create a fantastic tale.
Call me crazy if you must, but I would suggest that the more likely scenario facilitating a significant decline in accidental drownings during the Flu season between the November thru March time frame is more likely a result of having the majority of the countless number of outdoor swimming pools across the country closed for the winter, save for the fortunate folks in San Diego and Miami who may keep theirs open longer.
Do you wish to be rational? Perhaps you might want to consider what the likely ratio is between those who die of heart attacks, relative to those who die of the bullet wounds in a drive by shooting event? I would take a wild guess that the bullet is more likely to be the dominate factor ... but it's just the crazy way I think, I suppose.
No, Suzy .... the basic premise you're promoting here is EXTREMELY far fetched, and that is the kindest definition.
The heart of the matter (pun intended) is that there is no proof whatsoever that flu vaccines even prevent the freaking flu, let alone lead to better cardiac outcomes in vaccine recipients. Your problem (and you are not alone) is that no cockamamie story is too far fetched and absurd for you to consider reasonable. And that's not me saying this .. that's you proving this true in your rationalizations that are in fact, highly irrational.
The real truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth is, that the only evidence that flu vaccines have any beneficial effect at all is in the same statistical hocus pocus used to suggest that vaccines can reduce plane crashes. If you can be convinced of the latter, the former is just a walk in the park.
Lotta tapdancing in this post, Guy, but all you've said is you personally do not believe in flu vaccines.
Do you have any evidence to refute the finding that people who take flu vaccine have fewer strokes and heart attacks? Or that their all cause mortality is lower?
Lotta tapdancing in this post, Guy, but all you've said is you personally do not believe in flu vaccines.
Do you have any evidence to refute the finding that people who take flu vaccine have fewer strokes and heart attacks? Or that their all cause mortality is lower?
Can you explain the mechanism by which flu shots that don't do that great a job preventing the flu, would prevent heart attacks? Seriously -- how can the flu shot stop heart attacks.
The experts claiming that meth helps prevent colds and flu make more sense.
Can you explain the mechanism by which flu shots that don't do that great a job preventing the flu, would prevent heart attacks? Seriously -- how can the flu shot stop heart attacks.
The experts claiming that meth helps prevent colds and flu make more sense.
I would imagine there is no direct mechanism... Sort of like having no guns in your house makes you less likely to be a victim of gun shots. People who generally get flu shots are more concerned about their health and would be more healthy in generally....
I would imagine there is no direct mechanism... Sort of like having no guns in your house makes you less likely to be a victim of gun shots. People who generally get flu shots are more concerned about their health and would be more healthy in generally....
This is actually a valid argument. It is called "the healthy patient effect" and is one of the reasons that studies try to match comparison groups as closely as they can.
In the study in the link, the risk reduction was seen both in people with known heart disease and those without it, however.
You know ... you have this annoying tendency to present your beliefs as representing the official consensus stance on these matters, when nothing could be further from the truth. Like the idea that there is "no question about the science" which totally ignores a decades long raging debate that has been ongoing, and building to an explosive head in recent years. The same is true of the official position regarding flu vaccine being able to cause the disease, which is strenuously denied by the so-called experts, while proffering the defunct circular reasoning that side effects from the vaccine may produce all of the symptoms of the flu, but doesn't show one actually got the flu from the vaccine.
Now I must admit that I'm floored by you conceding the point that a live virus vaccine can cause the disease, because it is a significant departure from the official position which you generally defend at all costs. So, I'm not sure if this is simply a tactical error on your part, or a sign of willingness to be honest. Be that as it may, this line of reasoning needs to be explored in more depth.
So if we agree that the live virus FluMist vaccine can indeed cause the flu ... it is part and parcel to that conclusion that it can also serve as a vector for spreading the infection. One need no psychic ability or prophetic skill to predict the likely outcome of administering an infectious agent like this in a setting such as a WalMart Store, with adults and children all lined up to have this infectious agent squirted into their nostrils. This vaccine administration then results in the runny noses and sneezing, and wiping of those noses with their hands. Then, this platoon of people go about their shopping ... picking up and handling products and shopping carts and spreading these live viruses throughout the entire store, creating the scenario for many others to come along behind them and be exposed to possible infection themselves. The store patrons and employees alike, who may then be infected, who then go about their routines after leaving that store to spread this everywhere else they go ... the restaurant, the movie theater, the post office, the school, on and on and on. Fact is, it doesn't take an inordinate amount of objective analysis to see how such a scenario is more likely to cause an increase in infection rates of a target population, rather than serving as a preventive measure. And one need only set aside their personal biases and beliefs long enough to allow common sense to speak.
Now, whether or not this is a product of immensely gross incompetence, bordering shear lunacy, or a deliberate act to facilitate predictable negative outcomes, is left for the individual to decide. However, one would have to be very thick to dismiss intention as the most likely case, given the obvious financial benefits of mass distribution of vaccines, and the resulting increase in infection rates, and the resulting increases in business at hospitals, doctors offices, pharmacies, to include increased sales of over-the-counter medications, which is alone, a Multibillion dollar enterprise annually.
Those who do not immediately recognize the serious flaws in this whole ill conceived program, possess the type of poor judgement that allows them to dismiss purpose as the guiding hand here.
No, bub, a killed virus vaccine CANNOT cause disease. That is not my opinion, it is fact.
No, a flu shot cannot cause flu illness. The influenza viruses contained in a flu shot are inactivated (killed), which means they cannot cause infection. Flu vaccine manufacturers kill the viruses used in the vaccine during the process of making vaccine, and batches of flu vaccine are tested to make sure they are safe. In randomized, blinded studies, where some people get flu shots and others get salt-water shots, the only differences in symptoms was increased soreness in the arm and redness at the injection site among people who got the flu shot. There were no differences in terms of body aches, fever, cough, runny nose or sore throat.
The ability of the flu mist vaccine to transmit flu has been shown to happen at a day care facility. However, the bold is a logic failure on your part, trying to twist what I have said.
Can you explain the mechanism by which flu shots that don't do that great a job preventing the flu, would prevent heart attacks? Seriously -- how can the flu shot stop heart attacks.
The experts claiming that meth helps prevent colds and flu make more sense.
"Not that great a job" is a matter of opinion. Less than 100% effectiveness does not mean no effectiveness at all.
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And it can only lead to a very predictable disaster.
