Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Given the stats I posted earlier, it's extremely likely that there is some level of corruption here. No, I don't have conclusive proof. Although it may be out there somewhere. I vaguely remember seeing a more comprehensive study by the ATF however I was not able to find it when I started this thread.
I doubt the numbers are what I posted in my OP however. There are no details on how many of these 60% of guns used in crimes were acquired by the criminals themselves directly from that 1.2% of dealers, or if said criminals had prior records. Some of these dealers could be in high crime localities, and therefore more likely to sell to a future, not current criminal, or more likely to sell to someone who's home will be burglarized and their gun stolen.
I'm all for "busting these guys" if they are selling directly to felons, I just wanted to see if the anti-gun crowd was for it too, as opposed to ridiculous assault weapons bans etc. and other forms of posturing to the logically deficient.
That was really my point here, and I think I got my answer given that the usual anti-gun crowd is absolutely nowhere to be found, when I've presented a very solid lead we could follow in order to limit criminals' access to firearms.
It is not clear from the information how these end up in the hands of criminals, is there another buyer or are the felons acquiring these directly from dealers. Closing down a dealer can drag on for years, they need to prove willfull violation, if you read through the link to the Center for Public Integrity, (independent organization) you will see the difficulty closing down a dealer that could not account for 3,000 guns. I didn't see anything that indicated where the guns ended up, but it's amazing this dealer is still in business.
For private information to be made available, you need a search warrant. Please tell me you get that.
For a local LEO, he can request the access if he has a ongoing and relevant case. There's nothing wrong with that, and it's done all the time.
The ATF can already inspect dealers, prior to the Tiahrt amendment local law enforcement had access to the information as they already do in other instances, what was the issue that required this restriction?
The ATF can already inspect dealers, prior to the Tiahrt amendment local law enforcement had access to the information as they already do in other instances, what was the issue that required this restriction?
The issue is the 4th Amendment. I am sorry that you don't get this but that is exactly where the issue is.
Without the due process of the law, no such information should be made available to anybody. It is true for civilian firearm business and it is true for every other business.
Again, for any LEO, he or she can request such access by presenting their probable cause and getting a warrant. Nothing too complicated.
What you have been saying is to bypass the due process of the law, completely in violation of the 4th Amendment.
Last edited by lifeexplorer; 02-11-2013 at 04:03 PM..
It is not clear from the information how these end up in the hands of criminals, is there another buyer or are the felons acquiring these directly from dealers. Closing down a dealer can drag on for years, they need to prove willfull violation, if you read through the link to the Center for Public Integrity, (independent organization) you will see the difficulty closing down a dealer that could not account for 3,000 guns. I didn't see anything that indicated where the guns ended up, but it's amazing this dealer is still in business.
I don't see anything wrong with this. You and whoever wrote the article are trying to making a non-issue an issue.
If a dealer suffers an accident through no fault on his own, it's easy to lose records of thousands of guns. For example, a fire can destroy a lot of paper records like Form 4473, and then nobody would know who has which gun - they become unaccounted for. There was hardly any detail provided, so all of us are just speculating. Think about it, if the dealer actually committed any crime and the ATF got enough probable cause, the dealer would have been arrested, put in jail waiting for trial.
The dealer was not shut down because ATF had no probable cause or the dealer did not break any law.
Should that business be shut down just because? No, not without the due process of the law. You really seem to struggle on this. Why don't you ask the Colorado mass murderer to be executed on the spot? What's the point of going through trials? You think even the mass murderer deserves the due process of the law but somehow gun dealers don't?
Last edited by lifeexplorer; 02-11-2013 at 04:20 PM..
Yes I've seen those stats before. Probably a good amount of overlap between "family/friends" and straw purchase, as getting a gun from family or friends when you're not allowed to own one is essentially a delayed straw purchase in itself.
And we'd need more details on where the illegal/street sources get the guns to begin with. Again, probably a combination of corrupt dealers and straw purchases.
That .7% figure does shoot a hole in the "gun show loophole" hysteria however.
I don't see anything wrong with this. You and whoever wrote the article are trying to making a non-issue an issue.
If a dealer suffers an accident through no fault on his own, it's easy to lose records of thousands of guns. For example, a fire can destroy a lot of paper records like Form 4473, and then nobody would know who has which gun - they become unaccounted for. There was hardly any detail provided, so all of us are just speculating. Think about it, if the dealer actually committed any crime and the ATF got enough probable cause, the dealer would have been arrested, put in jail waiting for trial.
The dealer was not shut down because ATF had no probable cause or the dealer did not break any law.
Should that business be shut down just because? No, not without the due process of the law. You really seem to struggle on this. Why don't you ask the Colorado mass murderer to be executed on the spot? What's the point of going through trials? You think even the mass murderer deserves the due process of the law but somehow gun dealers don't?
The dealer cannot account for 3,000 guns and you call that a non-issue, yet many on here are criticizing the ATF for losing a few hundred.This is not a business that lost TV sets or refrigerators, these are guns, what if those guns ended up killing people, what if the owners is really just covering for illegal sales. The ATF has no ability to police these types of situations, gun organizations have done everthing they could to make sure this practice continues. I would have hoped that closing these dealers down would have been common ground.
got anything else from an unbiased source. something that does not have bloombergs name attached to it, or any other gun control advocate?
dont quote anything from the NRA either, for the most part, they are about as progun as bloomberg is.
The source is Johns Hopkins Universtiy, they have done research on gun violence, they are primarily doctors that have seen the downside, what's your source???
The issue is the 4th Amendment. I am sorry that you don't get this but that is exactly where the issue is.
Without the due process of the law, no such information should be made available to anybody. It is true for civilian firearm business and it is true for every other business.
Again, for any LEO, he or she can request such access by presenting their probable cause and getting a warrant. Nothing too complicated.
What you have been saying is to bypass the due process of the law, completely in violation of the 4th Amendment.
You are purposely evading the point, the ATF already has access for inspection, local law enforcement had access to the ATF records in the past. Federal agencies have always shared information in the past, local law enforcement could obtain the information in the past and did not need to show probable cause, the Tiahrt amendment took away access, it had nothing to do with a 4th amendment issue.
So tell me, simple question, what was the point of the Tihart Amendment, what problem were they solving??
The dealer cannot account for 3,000 guns and you call that a non-issue, yet many on here are criticizing the ATF for losing a few hundred.This is not a business that lost TV sets or refrigerators, these are guns, what if those guns ended up killing people, what if the owners is really just covering for illegal sales. The ATF has no ability to police these types of situations, gun organizations have done everthing they could to make sure this practice continues. I would have hoped that closing these dealers down would have been common ground.
It is a non issue because the parties involved were following the proper legal process.
Again unaccounted for doesn't mean sold to criminals. We don't know how it happened and what reasons were. So stop speculation and get the facts.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
