Why are prison gangs allowed? (Congress, enemies, heroin, independent)

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by MRiedl

I don't think you'll find many veterans who agree with you on this one. I've known a lot of military veterans, and I can't think of one of them who I would call "nothing but a tool."

You are putting words in my mouth.
I only said that, as long as you are not drafted, being in the military is your own choice and being in the military not by your own choice is not having a choice.
Fact is that tools (as in instruments) do not have a choice when they are used or not.
Nor are they ever asked for their opinions.

Most have even said they look back at the training process as a positive experience.

Could that be because, I dunno I'm just guessing here, it was their choice to join or to stay in the army?
Do you have any idea how hard it is to deprogram an unwilling subject?

Now, it makes sense for him to try to fix the leak if he can, but until he knows how to do such, he needs to keep bailing so the boat doesn't sink while he figures things out.

The thing is that criminality and gang-mentality aren't individual problems, but cultural (as in society's) problems.
Criminality and gang-mentality are symptoms and not the cause.
Or maybe you believe that since only the living commit crimes, life is a crime too?

[MRiedl]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

Originally Posted by MRiedl You are putting words in my mouth.
I only said that, as long as you are not drafted, being in the military is your own choice and being in the military not by your own choice is not having a choice.
Fact is that tools (as in instruments) do not have a choice when they are used or not.
Nor are they ever asked for their opinions.

Given the content of the post I was referring to:

I was trying to imply that the military is just another gang.
The problem is that when we treat our citizens as people without autonomy, they become nothing but tools.

You'll have to understand if I misunderstood the post as being intended as derisive toward the military, especially since you didn't even mention conscription until later in the post.

Similarly, an important part of military training is to teach the soldier to stop thinking directly of himself, and start thinking in terms of the group instead.

Could that be because, I dunno I'm just guessing here, it was their choice to join or to stay in the army?

While to be honest, I've never asked specifically, two of the veterans I know best were in WWII and Vietnam respectively, both of which included conscription.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to deprogram an unwilling subject?

Apparently not hard enough to prevent the practice, as it has been around throughout history.

The thing is that criminality and gang-mentality aren't individual problems, but cultural (as in society's) problems.
Criminality and gang-mentality are symptoms and not the cause.

So you claim. The fact of the matter is though that regardless of where you think the cause is, the approach of (civilized) prisons has always been rehabilitation, which is pretty much by definition treating the symptom.

Whether you agree or not, it is the goal of the penal system to basically do two things. The first is just to keep dangerous individuals from harming other citizens, the second is to reform them.

Allowing them large amounts of freedom in prison may make the guard's lives easier and cut costs, but it only effectively accomplishes the first goal.

Using an extremely structured environment would require more guards and thus increase expenses, but I think it would do a considerably better job as far as reform goes, which would hopefully reduce prison populations and in turn reduce costs in the long run.

As things are, we have a very high rate of criminals being released, then ending up back in prison shortly thereafter.

Or maybe you believe that since only the living commit crimes, life is a crime too?

Now you are trying to put words in my mouth.

It isn't a very good comparison either. Crime is defined by our legal system and life isn't one last I checked. Crime is just a word we use to represent behavior which society does not tolerate.

I notice you didn't bother responding to my poison oak example. I think it fits quite well. Medicine fits quite well in general actually. There are several diseases out there that we either don't know how to cure and all we can do as a result is treat the symptoms.

In some cases, if the symptoms aren't treated, they will kill the patient. An example that springs to mind is Diabetes. If the blood sugar isn't monitored and controlled, damage results. In medicine, the symptoms are always treated as best as can be done, and the cause is dealt with when it is possible to do so. Why? Because symptoms are what really count. They are, after all why we concern ourselves with cause in the first place.

Getting back to the subject though, whether or not crime has its roots in societal problems is irrelevant to our prison system. Prisons are designed to treat the symptom to expect them to also solve societal problems is downright rediculous. They are meant to keep the problem in check and salvage what can be salvaged.

As for dealing with the underlying causes, that is a problem for sociology professors, politicians, and citizens as a whole to figure out and solve. Once we understand the root causes of criminal behavior, that knowledge can be applied into the prison system to treat the symptoms. Of course, that would be far more difficult in prisons where the gangs control things.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by MRiedl

You'll have to understand if I misunderstood the post as being intended as derisive toward the military, especially since you didn't even mention conscription until later in the post.

Simply because I did not post anything negative of the military when I compared the military with a gang. There is no difference between a gang structure and a military structure, especially if you take guerrilla warfare into account.
The armies of Russia and the United States were far more competent, but in Afghanistan and Chechnya, Vietnam and Iraq, they, too, found themselves stymied by smaller, poorer adversaries, largely because their armed forces were not properly configured for counter-guerrilla warfare. The enemy here more resembled gangs than a modern military unit.
A gang fights for its 'turf' the same way a soldier fights for his country.
And a gang-member like any other soldier is conditioned to give his life for the gang.

Apparently not hard enough to prevent the practice, as it has been around throughout history.

Just because it has been tried throughout history does not been that it has been successful.
But nowadays we are able to turn children into 'perfect' killing machines with the use of the Stockholm syndrome.
But I wouldn't be proud of that tho.

So you claim. The fact of the matter is though that regardless of where you think the cause is, the approach of (civilized) prisons has always been rehabilitation, which is pretty much by definition treating the symptom.

Unlike popular belief I don't believe that prisons can punish AND rehabilitate at the same time.
They should either do one or the other.

Now you are trying to put words in my mouth.

I know you didn't believe that, but you assume too much when it comes to my opinion.

[MRiedl]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

Originally Posted by MRiedlSimply because I did not post anything negative of the military when I compared the military with a gang. There is no difference between a gang structure and a military structure, especially if you take guerrilla warfare into account.
The armies of Russia and the United States were far more competent, but in Afghanistan and Chechnya, Vietnam and Iraq, they, too, found themselves stymied by smaller, poorer adversaries, largely because their armed forces were not properly configured for counter-guerrilla warfare. The enemy here more resembled gangs than a modern military unit.
A gang fights for its 'turf' the same way a soldier fights for his country.
And a gang-member like any other soldier is conditioned to give his life for the gang.

I think that is something of an oversimplification. But, essentially yes, they are both hierarchies, or at least can be. So yes, they can use a similar structure. Beyond that basic resemblance though, the differences abound.

Just because it has been tried throughout history does not been that it has been successful.
But nowadays we are able to turn children into 'perfect' killing machines with the use of the Stockholm syndrome.
But I wouldn't be proud of that tho.

Not exactly a fair comparison, nor is it even related to the point I brought it up for. People have used "conditioning" techniques of one sort or another for most of recorded history. Often it is simply education oriented. Sometimes it has been put to use toward the training of soldiers. Like any sort of tool, it can be put to numerous uses.

Historically speaking as well as today, numerous societies have and have had mandatory military service and have made it work.

Unlike popular belief I don't believe that prisons can punish AND rehabilitate at the same time.
They should either do one or the other.

The only thing they have to do with imprisonment is keep the inmates separated from outside society. Once that condition is met, rehabilitation attempts can be made easily. Even the concept of punishment itself is meant as a form of rehabilitation. After all, prison is generally considered to be a negative experience and therefore something to be avoided.

It's basic operant conditioning.

I know you didn't believe that, but you assume too much when it comes to my opinion.

I respond to arguments as they are presented. Sometimes I may miss what you are trying to say, but if you want to remedy that, all you have to do is clarify.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by MRiedl

MRiedlI think that is something of an oversimplification. But, essentially yes, they are both hierarchies, or at least can be. So yes, they can use a similar structure. Beyond that basic resemblance though, the differences abound.

Only if you want to believe that a military career is more ‘civilised’ than gang-life.
I can assure you that violence in the military is the same as in a gang-life, or that violence marks a soldier no differently than a gang-member.

I respond to arguments as they are presented.

That is what I mean. I do not draw the same conclusion you would, even when we were presented with the same data.
I might find certain things obvious, while most people would not. And sometimes what most people find obvious, I find the opposite.
And even when we draw the same conclusion it might be for a totally different reason.
But I don't mind explaining myself.

[MRiedl]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

Only if you want to believe that a military career is more ‘civilised’ than gang-life.
I can assure you that violence in the military is the same as in a gang-life, or that violence marks a soldier no differently than a gang-member.

That is a pretty bold statement.

I have to ask whether you are basing it on personal experience, or something else.

I haven't served in the military personally, so I'm not exactly an authority on the subject.

Still, I am betting there is a veteran or two here who might want to venture an objection to your claim there.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by MRiedl

have to ask whether you are basing it on personal experience, or something else.

I haven't served in the military personally, so I'm not exactly an authority on the subject.

Well then your knowledge is only theory, while mine is experience. I do not glamorise the military or gang-life.
You just do whatever you have to do to survive, unless you find that the cause you're fighting for is more worthy than your life.

[Frank_Carbonni]

There are so many people in this thread who have no idea what they are talking about.

First of all, prison gangs exist in virtually every prison system and have existed almost as long as prisons, even in police states. I know I will get some gung-ho quasi-fascist who will go on a rant about how "China don't let those things happen!", but it is the truth. To give everyone here an example of a violent prison gang in a totalitarian country, I suggest you look up the Thieves in Law.

The Thieves in Law are one of the several groups where the Russian Mafia (or mafiya) originated. They got their start in the Gulags of Stalinist (some say even Leninist) Russia. The Thieves lived by a code stating that a member could not make his living in any legal way, they must be a criminal whenever possible (think about how ballsy that it is when you consider the Soviet justice system) and the punishment for breaking this rule was to be raped in front of other inmates making the punished an untouchable at best and to be tortured to death at worst. They were as violent as any prison gang is today, in fact some say they were much more violent. After World War Two there was a period called "The ***** Wars", it was a period of countless murders and assaults in the Soviet prison system. How it got started was Stalin promised pardons to all prisoners who would fight for the Red Army against the German invaders, many of the Thieves took up the offer (which is a capital offense under the Thieves code). Stalin broke his promise and sent the prisoners back the various prisons and Gulags in the Soviet penal system. Many of the Thieves and other inmates who served in the armed forces were murdered or raped and there were many revenge attacks on the Thieves as well when many of the prisoners who violated the code banded together.

Now, that is the extremely short hand version of something that happened in the 1920s-1940s in one of the most repressive regimes that has ever existed on earth. Nothing I have said here is very hard to look up. In many ways an extremely tough prison system tends to make extremely tough prisoners.

And for the people who are talking about how the prisoners from the late 60s were so calm and pleasant are clearly fooled. Most of the infamous prison gangs around today were already established by then, some even earlier. The Mexican Mafia originally got its start in the mid 1950s in various California juvenile institutions and reform schools and were already very power in San Quentin and Folsom by the mid 1960s. The Aryan Brotherhood was formed from the Bluebird Gang (a white prison gang that was around from the late 1940s or early 1950s) in the mid 1960s. The Black Guerrilla Family was formed in 1966 by Black Panthers incarcerated in San Quentin.

Prison gangs exist because inmates need to protect themselves from other prisoners, inmates are looking for ways to get money (contraband such as drugs, cigarettes, alcohol, and pornography go for 2-5 times what they cost legally or on the street), inmates are looking for a way to victimize other prisoners, and inmates are looking for friendship. That is how these gangs and violent cliques form. If you are not part of a gang or at least part of a group or clique that is subordinate to a gang, you are prey for the sexual predators (who may or may not be involved in a gang), you can be extorted (many of the people under the protection of a gang are being extorted as well, but it is usually less than what they would have to pay or do with someone more hostile), and/or you have to deal with the sadists and psychopaths who would beat you for their own entertainment or to gain "respect". Numbers matter in prison and you being an odd man out is going to be very difficult even for the toughest guy you can imagine.

Prison gangs thrive because of the nature of prison (snitches are only above child molesters in prison) and because many prison staff view prison gangs as just a part of prison life or as way to keep the inmates divided. The second part almost sounds like a conspiracy theory, but a lot of prison guards and prison officials think it is better if the inmates are fighting amongst each other than banding together and possibly causing a riot. Not saying they actively help prison gangs or like the idea of them preying on other inmates, but they would rather have a San Quentin like situation where the races are all divided and most races are split into two gangs that are fighting each other than have an Attica like situation where the prisoners generally put aside their beefs and confront the staff.

[MRiedl]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

Well then your knowledge is only theory, while mine is experience. I do not glamorise the military or gang-life.
You just do whatever you have to do to survive, unless you find that the cause you're fighting for is more worthy than your life.

I am curious as to specific examples of the sort of violence you experienced while serving in the military which correspond to similar occurances within prisons.

After reading Frank_Carbonni's post, I just find it difficult to believe that soldiers typically band together to protect themselves from being assaulted or worse by oneanother.

=====

Frank_Carbonni: Admittedly, I am no expert regarding the inner workings of prison gangs.

Still, it seems to me that most of the problems you mention stem from the prisoners having the ability to harm each other or the staff.

If they can't murder and torture each other, and the need to band together for protection eliminated, most of their influence is lost.

Of course, actually creating an environment where they couldn't do so might be extremely difficult or prohibitively expensive. The real question though would be whether or not such a system would be more effective.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by MRiedl

I am curious as to specific examples of the sort of violence you experienced while serving in the military which correspond to similar occurances within prisons.

I (luckily) have never seen war when I was drafted in the Dutch Army. But when I already had served halve my time there I met a newly 'green' wet behind the ears career sergeant who boasted that he was able to kill people in combat if he was ordered to. Somehow I started to laugh at him.
Those who know me know that I do not laugh at people, I laugh with them, but in this case I couldn't help myself (so far it has been the first, and hopefully the last time, that I have done so).
Anyway, naturally the sergeant took offence which made me laugh even harder. He took me in a chokehold and threatened to kill me if I didn’t stop, but that did nothing to dissuade me from laughing right at his ridiculous statement. I’ve known this sergeant only for a short time since he was new, but I somehow knew that the only reason why he boasted that he could kill on command was to convince himself. The more he insisted that he was able to kill on command, the more I had to laugh because I believed otherwise. I even called his bluff because I kept laughing at him. People had to drag him off of me because I couldn’t stop laughing.

I know some real ‘killers’ and, unlike this sergeant who probably never had seen any real combat, they don’t give a damn if you believed they killed someone or not. Heck, they even preferred that no one ever believed that they actually have killed people. And if you do not truly know them, you wouldn’t believe that they have killed anyway. Being family of them did not ‘protect’ me, because I knew that they have killed family who worked for the other side.
These ‘killers’ taught me to think for myself and that in a war there are no good guys or bad guys, because in the end the Dutch government who ‘used’ them in their fight against the Japanese, shafted them by ordering them and their families to go to Holland (on behalf of the new Indonesian Government who just was given back their sovereignty by the Dutch government and the new independent Indonesian government wanted these collaborators for the Dutch government out of Indonesia).

Since I’ve never been in prison my knowledge of prison gangs is only theoretical, but I do agree with Frank_Carbonni who posted

In many ways an extremely tough prison system tends to make extremely tough prisoners.

and

Prison gangs exist because inmates need to protect themselves from other prisoners, inmates are looking for ways to get money (contraband such as drugs, cigarettes, alcohol, and pornography go for 2-5 times what they cost legally or on the street), inmates are looking for a way to victimize other prisoners, and inmates are looking for friendship. That is how these gangs and violent cliques form.

Violence is violence and I don’t think it matters if the one who used violence against you is a gang-member or a soldier.
I practice martial arts because I wanted to learn to control myself and I respect the philosophy of only defending yourself, so I do not abuse my knowledge to beat up every person who disagrees with me. But that does not prevent people who just want to do that from learning martial arts. The same could be said for a career in the military.
Heck even a Dutch marine unit (soldiers and their commander) was arrested for smuggling drugs from the Dutch Antilles to Holland using military vehicles.
Just because someone has served in the army (or still does so) does not make him a saint.