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Yes and unless you suggest we start locking people up based solely on suspicion, I don't know what to tell you. These things can be proven by the way, not always, but often.
That's not a "loophole" in any meaningful sense of the word. That is a way to take advantage of the unfortunate fact that we do not convict people of crimes without proof. Oh, the horror.
In fact, in the scenario you described, it would be difficult to show that you were conducting the transaction for non-business purposes, to enhance or sell off all or part of a personal collection of firearms. If you were making a profit, which presumably anyone who makes straw purchases is doing, otherwise there is no point, you are engaged in the business of selling firearms, and thus can be charged on that alone, no matter how many precautions you take, whether or not the person is a felon, or any other factor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB.Good
We're talking about going to a gun store and buying a gun for someone else.
The scenario you described would have been illegal regardless. It was your example, not mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp
You do not have to know that the person you sold the gun to is a felon. It's illegal period.
I'm not aware of any state that allows private sales in which you can be convicted for unknowingly selling a gun to a felon, provided they are a resident of said state. There must be intent.
Yes and unless you suggest we start locking people up based solely on suspicion, I don't know what to tell you. These things can be proven by the way, not always, but often.
That's not a "loophole" in any meaningful sense of the word. That is a way to take advantage of the unfortunate fact that we do not convict people of crimes without proof. Oh, the horror.
Call that what you will. That's not the point of this thread. I'm talking about straw purchasing.
Quote:
In fact, in the scenario you described, it would be difficult to show that you were conducting the transaction for non-business purposes, to enhance or sell off all or part of a personal collection of firearms. If you were making a profit, which presumably anyone who makes straw purchases is doing, otherwise there is no point, you are engaged in the business of selling firearms, and thus can be charged on that alone, no matter how many precautions you take, whether or not the person is a felon, or any other factor.
The scenario you described would have been illegal regardless. It was your example, not mine.
So this amounts to "You'd get arrested, just not for straw purchasing."
And for the record, what would be the penalty if you were arrested as you described?
I'm not aware of any state that allows private sales in which you can be convicted for unknowingly selling a gun to a felon, provided they are a resident of said state. There must be intent.
Alaska: law prohibits handgun possession by or sale to a person who was convicted of a felony or adjudicated a delinquent minor for conduct that would constitute a felony if committed by an adult.
Arizona: law makes it illegal to sell or transfer a firearm to a prohibited possessor, defined as any person who has been found to be mentally ill by a court, convicted of a felony, adjudicated delinquent, imprisoned, or serving a term of probation, parole, community supervision, work furlough, home arrest, or release on any other basis because of a domestic violence or felony offense
Arkansas: It is illegal to furnish a firearm or other deadly weapon to a minor (under 18) without the consent of a parent or guardian, or to furnish a handgun or prohibited weapon to a felon
etc....
Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed
But it would appear that all state laws may not cover sales to a felon though I am sure this is not complete and I would still need to find federal laws.
Since all of you seem to be ducking this one pertinent fact, despite the fact that I've asked it over & over again...
Explain how the Feds are "ignoring" a law when they bring the case to prosecutors and prosecutors say "You don't have a case."
Explain how the Feds are "ignoring" a law when they bring the case to prosecutors and prosecutors say "You don't have a case."
Explain how the Feds are "ignoring" a law when they bring the case to prosecutors and prosecutors say "You don't have a case."
Explain how the Feds are "ignoring" a law when they bring the case to prosecutors and prosecutors say "You don't have a case."
Explain how the Feds are "ignoring" a law when they bring the case to prosecutors and prosecutors say "You don't have a case."
Explain how the Feds are "ignoring" a law when they bring the case to prosecutors and prosecutors say "You don't have a case."
Explain how the Feds are "ignoring" a law when they bring the case to prosecutors and prosecutors say "You don't have a case."
You are citing excellent examples of how the agency involved created a plan to catch law breakers and implemented that plan so poorly and incompetently that the proscutors could not do anything with it. It makes sense in your mind to give them more power to screw up? Why dont we just make a new law that says "It is against the law to break the law and if you do we will scold you for a really really long time until you dont want to listen to us. We can repeat the scolding over and over if you didnt respond the way we want and then you wont want to break any laws anymore. Right, honey?"
Call that what you will. That's not the point of this thread. I'm talking about straw purchasing.
And I'm telling you that the vast majority of what you consider to be straw purchases are covered by additional laws, so in reality, it does not matter if you choose to focus on straw purchasing, that just throws the entire argument off.
It's like me trying to bolster one law in order to prevent a crime that is covered under multiple other laws, and more aptly at that, then using the lack of enforcement of that law and that law only to make other arguments which have no practical benefit, as evidenced by the fact that the first X number of laws covering the same act are not effective due to lack of enforcement.
1. You sell guns, to anyone, as a business, without an FFL, you are committing a crime.
2. You knowingly sell guns to people who can not legally own them, you are committing a crime.
3. You knowingly sell certain guns (handguns) to out of state residents (in most if not all states), you are committing a crime.
The VAST majority of straw purchasers will fall under both #1 and #2. The VAST majority of interstate straw purchasers (think VA to NY) fall under #1, #2, and #3.
So there you go, all without a single mention of "straw purchasing" specifically. So, tell me more about how a couple of enhancements to straw purchase laws will put an end to it all.
You are citing excellent examples of how the agency involved created a plan to catch law breakers and implemented that plan so poorly and incompetently that the proscutors could not do anything with it. It makes sense in your mind to give them more power to screw up? Why dont we just make a new law that says "It is against the law to break the law and if you do we will scold you for a really really long time until you dont want to listen to us. We can repeat the scolding over and over if you didnt respond the way we want and then you wont want to break any laws anymore. Right, honey?"
Yeah... hundreds of hours of surveillance and hundreds of pages = a poor plan.
Another nobody arguing against the words of Federal prosecutors & ATF agents.
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