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I like the idea of giving workers a bigger slice of the pie. I think the best way to do this is to reduce their salary and compensate the difference with shares. This way, as the company generates profits, the profits are shared with the employees since the value of stock rises (or there's a dividend payout).
This is a terrible idea. People with nothing can't afford to lose. If you make $500k a year, then you can have plenty tucked away that you can afford to lose. If you make $25k a year, it's likely that you don't have anything to lose, and taking on that sort of risk simply would not work.
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Originally Posted by alphamale
I'm all for it, as long as the employees are willing to take the risk of loss as well.
Yeah, as I said above...I think this is a terrible plan.
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Originally Posted by alphamale
They can.....just work another job.
Oh, is that all? Yes, jobs seem to be flowing these days. They are anyone's for the taking!
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Originally Posted by hnsq
Everyone deserves a wage they can get by on, and everyone already has that.
Huh?
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Not everyone deserves a wage where they can own their own home, go out on weekends and only work 40 hours/week just because they have a pulse and can wash a dish. Get a few roommates, live with another family, don't own a car, cook your own meals and minimum wage is very livable.
This is obviously where they differ. I believe that someone who is working an honest full time job deserves enough pay to live at least a modest personal existence. You apparently think that even a modest existence requires you to bust your ass and sacrifice.
I have thought about this plenty of times before, and I have my opinion why. I think it comes down to jealousy, and not the direction you think. I think that a lot of the people who bust their ass and sacrifice to gain more don't WANT those at the bottom levels to have anything. If the janitor has a pre-paid flip phone, then the other guy's iPhone with unlimited data doesn't seem as much of a gem. If the grocery checker has a 20" tube TV, then the other guy's 60" 3d LED TV isn't as impressive. If the lunch lady has a 1985 Honda, the other guy's 2013 BMW doesn't seem as flashy.
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Can you also explain why it "just isn't in the cards" for many people? Why can't the dishwasher see that they are understaffed in cooks for a few hours/night, volunteer to help cook instead of hiring someone else and then ask for a raise as a result?
Why shouldn't he be paid enough for a modest existence in the first place? Why should he have to take on extra work on top of his full time job just to pay the bills?
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So you pick a single CEO of one of the highest grossing companies to prove your point? Talk about utilizing outiers instead of honest data!
OK, seriously. You think it's THAT far out of the usual? She's not even close to one of the highest-paid. The average CEO pay of the S&P 500 for 2011 was: $12.94 million or 328 times the median single income of 2011(note: liberal labor link) $9.6 million or 244 times the median (note: slightly more moderate link) $10.3 million or 262 times the median (note: WSJ...not very liberal)
And I don't care if not all of that is salary. Irrelevant.
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Everyone thinks they are an above average worker and obviously not everyone is. Releasing all salaries would be disastrous! Have you ever managed anyone? Obviously not...older workers are typically paid more than younger workers who have the same skillset because a company needs to provide an incentive for younger people to stay. If a younger person feels they can work up to something in a company, they are statistically more likely to show loyalty. If they think they can jump ship at the drop of a hat for more cash, they will show absolutely no loyalty, and productivity in turn suffers. Suppose that younger person who is a rising star now suddenly sees that the 50 year old guy in the office next to him makes 70% more than him while doing less work. Suppose he factually knows that. He will approach his boss and demand a raise to that level of pay or he will quit.
This idea would do nothing but further separate the top producers into companies of their own while leaving those with less ability or drive behind. Talk about a terrible idea.
While I agree that sharing salaries is not a good idea and would only create animosity, I do find your statement that paying younger people less is an incentive, curious.
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Actually it is closer to 37x the average worker. The study that claimed 400x was based on S&P data, a service which not only looks at the 350 highest grossing salaries in the country, but also changed its reporting methodology in the 1990's. Prior to the '90s it only looked at salary whereas today it looks at salary plus non-monetary benefits (options, health care, etc.)
See above. The numbers I gave were for the S&P 500...or FIVE-HUNDRED companies. We're not talking a few local sandwich shops here. And it doesn't matter if the number is just salary or all compensation. Money is money.
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Originally Posted by OICU812
Fawning over the wealthy?? In case you have been living in a cave the past five years, our government has been vilifying the wealthy.
Oh, boo-***-hoo. Few are actually vilifying the wealthy. Asking them to pay a little more into the pot is not punishing. It's not vilifying.
If anything, I'd say we were punishing and vilifying the poor.
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Originally Posted by swagger
BS. There's no magic "skill" required to start a business. It just takes work.
That's just plain old hoppycock. The vast majority of people simply have no ability to run a business.
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I have no formal education in business, and we started our company less than five years ago with about $1,000 (that thousand was earned and spent over a few months to get the licenses, permits, furniture, etc. in place). Today, we're doing quite well, despite the terrible economy we've all been dealing with for 4+ years.
Good for you. And I mean that. Doesn't mean that those who are just doing their jobs should be getting paid a livable wage.
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If someone wants to start a business, all they really need is to want it bad enough. If they do, they will find a way to make it happen.
This sounds like participation trophy-type stuff.
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Originally Posted by swagger
No, they don't. They think that anyone is qualified to be the boss. That's why they're the boss at their company. Oh, wait...
Complete bull. And why these arguments never get anywhere. Person A say "I think someone working full time should be paid a livable wage." And person B's only response is "Oh my God! They just want a handout and want to be paid $100,000 a year for doing nothing and think they are just as important as the boss!1!11" Hard to have a rational discussion with that.
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Originally Posted by KS_Referee
It's always the same thing from useless socialists, marxists and communists. I want my "fair" share... but I don't want to have to go through what you did to earn it. I just want... No, I EXPECT it because I exist.
Oh, look!
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Originally Posted by Oldhag1
In many cases they would need to put their homes and life savings on the line too in order to equal the risk.
And since most of them have no life savings because they make too little to even save, well...
Yeah, as liberal as I am, I don't agree with the guy who said the employees have the same risk involved as an owner. However, that's not to say that they have no interest in the success of a company. I busted my ass for the last company I worked for (in a partially freelance sense). I put in numerous unpaid hours and went above and beyond the scope of work because I wanted the end product to be perfect. In the end, the company went down the tubes due to others' mismanagement, and I ended up losing.
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Originally Posted by stan4
No.
I am the perfect example of the owner.
I signed the loan that would ruin me if it didn't work out.
I go early and stay late and if someone doesn't show up, I suck it up.
I spend my days off at meetings. I work holidays and weekends.
If the profit falls/there is a loss, I take the hit and pay my employees no matter what, including their bonus.
I don't have time to eat, drink, or pee, but everyone else gets a mandated 30 minute break.
Few people would be willing to do what I have done to get where I am.
And until you're out there surveying the hiring pool, you won't be able to wrap your head around the fact that the 'work ethic' is dying everywhere.
Work ethic is dying because wages have not kept up with inflation, and are not nearly as high as they should be, leading to most people simply not giving a ****. Employers expect all this hard work and dedication without having to pony up their end of the deal while many times, they are raking it in.
Let's give an example. I worked for a company, again mostly freelance-type, more like perm-lance. It was a project-based company, and it was mostly projects where we'd plan for a few months, then go and install for about a month, 2-4 times a year. In the early days, we got taken out to dinner here and there, always something good, and upon completion of the project, we'd have a really nice night out. In other areas, we were able to get the supplies we needed to do our jobs and amenities on site to make the work day more enjoyable. Then the money started rolling in from one of the projects. One by one, amenities got cut. Snack and drinks were gone. At one point, I was told I needed to supply my own printer paper. The manager hoarded a box of Sharpies and would dole them out one by one. Crew dinners became "We'll buy the first round, the rest is on you." Meanwhile, the owner built himself an $18-million dollar mansion. And that's supposed to make me want to work harder for them?
I understand those businesses where the owner struggles all the time to stay afloat. But just as in the rest of the world...maybe it's just not in the cards for that business or owner.
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Originally Posted by ringwise
Yup, no clue as to how business works. So the worker loses their job. Other than their time, which they have been paid for, what else have they contributed to the company? What risk have they taken? Did they infuse capital? Work hours they were not paid for to make the company a success?
This is a really sorry way to look at employees. And I hope to never work for someone like you. People wonder why so many workers have little to no loyalty to a company or don't feel like busting their ass for one. This is it, right here. I understand the earned-respect thing, but to a point.
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Originally Posted by BBMW
I flipped through a few pages of this, enough to know that people aren't talking about the right subject. No one wants to admit what the problem really is. The problem is that there is simply not enough demand for general labor to stimulate wage growth significantly. Because of this, there are a large and growing group of people who are basically economically irrelevant. By this, I mean that their labor isn't worth anything to any company that could hire them.
This is unfortunately true. We've outsourced everything that these people used to do, and they are left with few options.
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Between offshoring and automation, many of the unskilled/semiskilled jobs that used to exist have simply disappeared. This will continue, and hit more and more job titles.
It's funny...I've heard some people argue that the automation is actually creating more jobs, not killing them.
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If you have good skills in the right areas, you're exempt from this problem, at least for now. But unless you have a job that requires skills that can't be automated and/or original thought, and is not geographically mobile, you're at risk of irrelevancy. And all those irrelevant (no longer) workers, make it impossible for those who are not in high demand professions to demand more money.
Luckily, I am not in an out-sourceable job and it's a job that's fun. Hopefully, it keeps me out of trouble for a while.
It's as simple as that, and it isn't going to change.
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Originally Posted by KS_Referee
So with all your knowledge on the inner workings of the Hostess business, including its supposed lack of debt, why didn't YOU buy it and keep those union people employed even with all their psychotic demands?
No one wanted to buy Hostess. Those that looked at it as a potential purchase ONLY looked at it due to brand recognition. Hostess is a bad investment.
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Originally Posted by KS_Referee
Name a single WalMart employee that is forced to work for WalMart.
What does being forced to work there or not have to do with anything? Oh I know...it's a mutual agreement between two individuals blah blah. The fact remains that so many people are so desperate for work that they will take these jobs. And they are barely paid enough to live. Thus, we subsidize them.
Now, if you agree with using welfare to subsidize low wages, then great. Let's do it. I just don't think that's the most solid path. Of course, you could say that we'll still pay low wages but eliminate welfare, but you know as well as I do that that's a silly proposition.
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Besides... WalMart employees have EASOP. Profit sharing, stock options, insurance, etc. Part time employees may not have some of those items, but they still get profit sharing.
And you think that this is kicking them into the livable wage category? Insurance? How many standard employees are really covered?
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Originally Posted by TheHurricaneKid
...Well it's a good thing to the CEO.
People have the freedom to share or not to share. In many cases, the sharing is done with the stockholders.
True. I think it sucks, however.
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Originally Posted by NJBest
A better way is to convert 25% of the salary to be paid in stock. That way the employee gets a piece of the pie by default.
If someone is already making so little they can barely pay the bills, having 25% of their salary in stock is not going to help them. In the very long run, maybe. But, if they can't make it to the end of that run, then it's not helpful. Can you imagine saying to someone making $20,000 a year, that they will now make only $15,000 a year, but will gain some stock? Now they have to figure out how to pay for things that the $5000 used to cover. Or, I guess they can feel stock every week.
Got tired of reading some of the posts.......Piece of the pie?....NO WAY.
Could repeat some of the words here..... 9 to 5 people....long breaks...coming in late or leaving early are just a few.
Best suggestion read was to "start your own business" but the problem that arises is the LACK OF KNOWLEDGE or experience to start one.
There are many who invest some money (saved or borrowed from a relative) and within 6 months or at the end of a lease close the doors. This is generally from lack of knowledge in the particular business or poor Reasearch and Developement.
I would never open a gas station at a corner with three others already there.....small mkt across the street from a Big Box Mkt.......seed my drift?
Anyone that invests money starting a business is entitled to the headaches.....Taxes....operating expenses....equipment needs....and YES any PROFIT they make after PAYROLL is theirs to keep be it small or large.......
Was in business for 36 yrs (started and owned 6) all sucessful.
Piece of the pie?......invest some money into my concern and then we can talk shop.......I mean Piece of the Pie.
Seems to me, if you are unhappy with your wages and benefits and your employer isn't filling your needs, then you go find a better employer. If you are a valued employee, someone else will be happy to hire you.
Seems to me, if you are unhappy with your wages and benefits and your employer isn't filling your needs, then you go find a better employer. If you are a valued employee, someone else will be happy to hire you.
I doubt it. then they will say you are not "loyal"
I don't have all the answers, I can only speak from personal experience. After moving to Australia, I do the exact same job as I did in America (after going back to school for it) I work 38 hours a week here, and enjoy an excellent quality of life, much better than in America. The best pay I could get for my field back in Oklahoma was $10 per hour with no benefits. Here I make $26 per hour, enjoy a perfect work/life balance, enjoy a high standard of living, and am not worried about being let go and out on the street for no reason. My company is doing just great, even after paying their people a decent wage-stunning isn't it? My education and work ethic is the same here as it was back in the U$, but it wasn;t until I moved here, that I was able to make a decent living. I live a very modest low-key lifestyle, but could barely make ends meet in America, due to nothing but low paying jobs. If Australia can do it, why can't America? I just don't get how these corporate apologists can't see that decent, educated, hard working Americans are underpaid, and taken advantage of. I'll take living in Australia ANY day-at least here hard work actually pays off!
Seems to me that we have been racing to the bottom for years. In the classic battle of labor and capital, labor has rolled over. Now we cheer about cutting the minimum wage, busting unions, fawning over the super wealthy,etc. But here is the thing. When workers earn a decent wage, they spend it. Much more of our money recirculates when workers are fairly paid, and the economy is healthier and more productive. Right now we are in a race for the bottom, where the workers relative wealth and health are stagnant or declining, job security is shattered, and we paper over that with low priced junk from Wal-Mart, Dollar Stores, and food stamps for the working poor.
Admittedly, paying labor more raises prices, but guess what? We are the most innovative country in the world. Why can't we appeal to the achievement drive of our employees. They want to do world class work, not produce cheap schlock. Why not ask them to do world class work, rather than work long hours for peanuts? The Germans do this, and they do it well. This will only come from the will of the people, and a respect for the drive and creativity of the workers.
When folks go from millionaires to billionaires, I think their achievement focus declines. They might have wanted to do something worthwhile at one point, but eventually it becomes ALL about aggregating wealth. That attitude is not what made America great. It is a pathology. A thirst for real innovation and achievement has always been more important than pure greed. Our workers can beat our capitalist overlords at that anytime, and when we invest in the worker, the country leads the world. The last century has shown this plainly. Tax cuts for the rich, in contrast, do almost nothing, except fund lobbyists and Super Pacs.
You didn't go to college apparently, if you did you didn't take economics or study a worthwhile degree (another reason you are crying about wages).
I guess I'll touch on some of your mythical stances, in the hopes that some other people don't read this tripe and think it has validity.
Unions? Open the newspaper or google, look at Stockton, CA. They are the if I remember correctly, the first major city (1m+ population) to declare chapter 9 bankruptcy. Why? They cannot make ends meet largely due to the obscene union pensions and compensations they so gratefully hung around the Stockton taxpayer and bond holders necks.
Much more money recirculates? You don't know what they do with their money, actually many investor grade and wealthy individuals start companies left and right with seed money, equity and bond investments, insurance, etc. They also spend on yachts, cars, houses, food and larger versions of many things you and I both buy daily which is ultimately supporting someones job. I would trust a financial guru to properly circulate money over some dope that cries about the unfair system yet has no understanding of how it works and why it is broken, along with misguided outrage.
You have no idea what a millionaire to billionaire's goal are, what they do with it or how they do it. You are simply guessing, and more than likely wrongly.
Minimum wage? Its a tool of a socialist, it is part of the reason wages are ****ty for a lot of people. I will save the technical analysis of it, but this should be good enough for a bumpkin like yourself to get.
You clearly, think the minimum wage is too low right? So let's make it $20/hr? Pretty sweet right? Hell yea!
How about $200/hr? DUDE WE WOULD BE RICH AF.
Here we go, YOLO. $2000/hr for anyone who works? OMG AWESOME.
Have you connected the dots yet? Is it sinking in yet? Yes, that is correct we couldn't pay people that
Tax cuts for the rich? My god, now you have gone from uneducated to downright ignorant. They pay for the MAJORITY of the taxes, they pay MORE per dollar than you do (it is called a rate) on income, they just had their taxes raised again while the poor worker was spared.
Quit complaining, start a business if you don't like working for someone. However since you know nothing about finance, economics and government impacts on those areas then you would be out of business and then complaining that entitlements aren't enough compensation.
I am living the dream, the reason you aren't is because you fail at it and blame others. Man up, make it happen and quit crying about people that do better than you.
I don't have all the answers, I can only speak from personal experience. After moving to Australia, I do the exact same job as I did in America (after going back to school for it) I work 38 hours a week here, and enjoy an excellent quality of life, much better than in America. The best pay I could get for my field back in Oklahoma was $10 per hour with no benefits. Here I make $26 per hour, enjoy a perfect work/life balance, enjoy a high standard of living, and am not worried about being let go and out on the street for no reason. My company is doing just great, even after paying their people a decent wage-stunning isn't it? My education and work ethic is the same here as it was back in the U$, but it wasn;t until I moved here, that I was able to make a decent living. I live a very modest low-key lifestyle, but could barely make ends meet in America, due to nothing but low paying jobs. If Australia can do it, why can't America? I just don't get how these corporate apologists can't see that decent, educated, hard working Americans are underpaid, and taken advantage of. I'll take living in Australia ANY day-at least here hard work actually pays off!
Maybe it has something to do with population. If you took the population of Texas and spread it over the contiguous United States, it would be about equivalent to the population density of Australia. It would make sense that there are fewer to compete for the jobs, therefore a higher wage is required for skilled labor.
Quit complaining, start a business if you don't like working for someone. However since you know nothing about finance, economics and government impacts on those areas then you would be out of business and then complaining that entitlements aren't enough compensation.
I am living the dream, the reason you aren't is because you fail at it and blame others. Man up, make it happen and quit crying about people that do better than you.
derosterreich is saying it like it is. If you are not happy with what you make then take a risk like the company owner you complain about and start your own business. Starting and running a business is not easy and actually the wage earner route is the easier road.
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Tax cuts for the rich? My god, now you have gone from uneducated to downright ignorant. They pay for the MAJORITY of the taxes, they pay MORE per dollar than you do (it is called a rate) on income, they just had their taxes raised again while the poor worker was spared.
Anyone who thinks that Obama made sense when he said they need to pay their fair share obviously does not have a clue to the realities and deserves to suffer the consequences of their ignorance.
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