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First, who says what you assert is even true? I distinctly remember Oklahoma City and the big question was also, why?
Second, when 'the white guy who shot up a school,' he was immediately caught and his mental history was quickly available. We didn't have to ponder his motive, he was nuts.
Thus, I conclude that you proceed from a false premise. The 'left' doesn't circle the wagons around motive only when the perpetrators are Muslims.
Wow. 9 pages (so far) of nonsense based on an unsubstantiated assertion by the OP. Only on CD.
American scapegoatism is popular throughout the world. We know this. Much is borne out of ignorance of the precarious foundation upon which civilization rests and is protected.
First, it isn't that easy to dismiss the criticisms. Second, it doesn't matter much even if you could, because perception is reality in this context. It affects the manner in which the rest of the world will interact with us, even if we claim that their rationale isn't valid. Indeed, the most common impact of effectively calling the rest of the world stupid for holding the perspective that labels us as arrogant is to convince them that they're right.
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Originally Posted by TriMT7
Is the world TRULY prepared for an America that extracts itself from the affairs of the rest of the world?
Don't think that threatening will make things better, either, because there's no profit to be earned there. Because of our superlative gifts and our superlative power, we inherit the obligation to practically dance on the head of a pin. We can choose to put more of ourselves forward in the interests of others, to mitigate the negative impact of our status, or we can choose to pay the penalty for not doing so. This is one cost we cannot evade completely.
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Originally Posted by TriMT7
Maybe it's time we found out.
The term "cutting one's nose to spite one's face" comes to mind.
First, it isn't that easy to dismiss the criticisms. Second, it doesn't matter much even if you could, because perception is reality in this context. It affects the manner in which the rest of the world will interact with us, even if we claim that their rationale isn't valid. Indeed, the most common impact of effectively calling the rest of the world stupid for holding the perspective that labels us as arrogant is to convince them that they're right.
There is a difference between "ignorance" and "stupidity."
The issue isn't that the rest of the world is STUPID. It's that they have apparently never thought about or have never bothered to think at a deeper level about US involvement in the world.
I think as a most basic primer, people should at least watch easily accessible documentaries, such as:
Don't think that threatening will make things better, either, because there's no profit to be earned there. Because of our superlative gifts and our superlative power, we inherit the obligation to practically dance on the head of a pin. We can choose to put more of ourselves forward in the interests of others, to mitigate the negative impact of our status, or we can choose to pay the penalty for not doing so. This is one cost we cannot evade completely.
You are right, but the US DOES attempt to mitigate where it can. Not much of anything done by the US these days is with malevolence or to steal or colonize, or anything nefarious.
Innocents these days aren't deliberately targeted, and its not policy to terrorize local populations.
It goes without saying that the US is not always benevolent. It does things in its own interests, and the interests of its allies.
Specific incidents and acts of WAR - such as in Afghanistan - are different. But even then Afghanistan can be characterized as a war fought on behalf of western civilization.
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Originally Posted by bUU
The term "cutting one's nose to spite one's face" comes to mind.
I believe this term is more apt for those who seem to want to be able to have America at its beck and call when it needs something, while decrying "American interventionism" when its something they DON'T want.
Or maybe more like the South Korean protestors who believe America stands in the way of reunification with their brothers to the north, and want us to leave.
I think that on balance, what America GAINS out of hegemony is less compelling that what everyone else gets from America's hegemony.
Of course isolationism is not an answer but honestly the role of America in the future needs to SERIOUSLY be rethought for the good of the American people above all.
There is a difference between "ignorance" and "stupidity."
Often the only difference is which side of the table you are on. It is indeed arrogant to claim that your side of the table is right and their side of the table is wrong - it is to some extent proving their point to claim that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7
The issue isn't that the rest of the world is STUPID. It's that they have apparently never thought about or have never bothered to think at a deeper level about US involvement in the world.
That's obviously not true. How much time have you spent talking with non-Americans about the United States?
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Originally Posted by TriMT7
I think as a most basic primer, people should at least watch easily accessible documentaries, such as:
Something that colors the matter in a distinctly US-tilted manner. Biased in our favor. Again, expecting others to just bend over and grant our importance in their lives is arrogant. QED again.
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Originally Posted by TriMT7
You are right, but the US DOES attempt to mitigate where it can.
And there is no reason not to with regard to matters such as the context of this thread - at least within the context of this thread, it actually doesn't cost the United States much at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7
I believe this term is more apt for those who seem to want to be able to have America at its beck and call when it needs something, while decrying "American interventionism" when its something they DON'T want.
A biased way of looking at it. Insist that your view is the only valid view and you've proven their point yet again.
The key point here is that in the context of this thread, there is no reason to not refrain from that kind of arrogance.
Why is it that the left goes to extremes to hide, cover up, ignore any links to Muslim extremist groups when they act to kill, but its look at the white guy how shot up a school? Look at the White supremacist who killed a black guy. HEY EVERYONE LOOK LOOK, but when its a Muslim, its Motive is not important, Bloomberg said this is just the new norm. When will we learn that the left has just as many maybe even more kooks and idiots as the right, they just hide them better.
It is strange really. Muslims hate everything the left stands for, example gay marriage, in muslim countries gays are jailed or put to death. Yet the left circles the wagons, why, because they sense that Obama wants to treat them as special, treat them softly and all events and policies must be weighed exclusively in terms of whether they are good or bad for Obama and his policies.
American scapegoatism is popular throughout the world. We know this. Much is borne out of ignorance of the precarious foundation upon which civilization rests and is protected.
Is the world TRULY prepared for an America that extracts itself from the affairs of the rest of the world? Ready for whatever would fill the void? Be more happy with regional powers flexing their muscles with impunity in the absence of an American threat?
Maybe it's time we found out.
Sure would be interesting to envision a world where America removed its presence from South Korea, Japan... Europe.... how would Korea fair? Taiwan? What about the kingdoms in the Middle East being propped up for oil that MOSTLY benefits Europe - NOT the United States?
A lot of what the world sees as "destabilization" is actually the opposite - stabilization - done with the implicit or explicit approval of every nation of any appreciable power whatsoever - in Europe AND Asia.
There is no easy answer. America is all too happy to waste its resources for ingrates, and I agree that it's time "the rest of the world" figure out how to go it alone.
Give me a freakin break!!!!!!!!!!!!!
American foreign policy is designed and implemented for ONE reason and one reason alone. "To further American INTERESTS" around the globe. It's too bad these interests are not the Interests of the American people but the interests of a very small % of Americans known as, "Corporate America".
Anywhere in the world where the people are trying or have tried to free themselves from grinding poverty, despotic right wing dictators and basically feudal systems where there are ZERO human rights you will always find the mighty USA right there supporting the status quo.
Your own back yard of Central and South America tells the complete story of this truely horrible and crimminal American foreign policy.
It's very clear though that this policy is nearly a total failure as country after country rejects the status quo and move towards "More just societies".
Every single Imperial power in history has ultimately failed and the USA will be no exception to this historical rule. You can not build an enduring country by the exploitation of poor powerless people.
What we are seeing today is the unravelling of Imperial America. The country will either learn how to become a post Imperial country,standing on it's own merits or continue to seclind until it does.
Just consider that in both the UK and in France the average man lives a far far better life now,"Post colonial" than they did while their countries controlled large portions of the earth. That is totally understandable as Imperialism or colonialism benefit the 1% way out of porportion than anyone else within the system. It also fosters a culture of exploitation that surely is applied just as much to their own citizens as to the exploited foreigners.
Often the only difference is which side of the table you are on. It is indeed arrogant to claim that your side of the table is right and their side of the table is wrong - it is to some extent proving their point to claim that.
And so? Since when is arrogance an excuse to act violently towards someone? Plenty of societies famous for their arrogance do not invite violence based on that fact alone.
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Originally Posted by bUU
That's obviously not true. How much time have you spent talking with non-Americans about the United States?
More than I should probably should bother myself to... and you know what? Very rarely does a non-American who holds a negative view of our hegemony give even a shred of credit or deference to an American perspective, or the role of America in securing resources and their own way of life.
And as mentioned, most everything America does these days is with explicit or implicit approval, consult or support of those nations whose citizens are often our harshest critics. So that's probably the saddest part of all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU
Something that colors the matter in a distinctly US-tilted manner. Biased in our favor. Again, expecting others to just bend over and grant our importance in their lives is arrogant. QED again.
Why? To spare their egos?
Not all perspectives are equal. Some are more informed than others. Not all opinions are equal, either, unless we're talking about banal subjects like Coke v. Pepsi.
That's not arrogance. That's reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU
And there is no reason not to with regard to matters such as the context of this thread - at least within the context of this thread, it actually doesn't cost the United States much at all.
A biased way of looking at it. Insist that your view is the only valid view and you've proven their point yet again.
To merely state that "to many people around the world the United States is a terrorist nation" is to cite a perspective. Fine.
To point out that perspective is fundamentally flawed or at least mitigated by this thing called the reality of geopolitics should not be problematic to most people.
And if one is to make the assertion that the US is a "terrorist" nation, I'm going to need a bit more insight into the factors that lead to such an opinion being advanced.
Oddly, you appear ready and willing to accept such pronouncements without the need for the type of follow-up you demand for those who take issues with such perceptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU
The key point here is that in the context of this thread, there is no reason to not
I can guarantee you one thing: When a thread here starts out with, "Why does the left . . ." or "Why do liberals . . ." you can rest assured that whatever comes next is going to be a lie.
American foreign policy is designed and implemented for ONE reason and one reason alone. "To further American INTERESTS" around the globe. It's too bad these interests are not the Interests of the American people but the interests of a very small % of Americans known as, "Corporate America".
Yes, and I'm sure "corporate Canada" and "corporate Europe" have absolutely ZERO say in any of it.
America's interests are not in a vacuum. It's about time smug western Europeans and Canadians understand at LEAST that much.
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Originally Posted by lucknow
Anywhere in the world where the people are trying or have tried to free themselves from grinding poverty, despotic right wing dictators and basically feudal systems where there are ZERO human rights you will always find the mighty USA right there supporting the status quo.
Yep. With the backing and consent of your own government and those of most of the western world as well.
Or do you think America helps prop up middle eastern dictators for its own interests alone?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow
Your own back yard of Central and South America tells the complete story of this truely horrible and crimminal American foreign policy.
An admittedly poor foreign policy wrought at the height of the cold war as proxy for conflict against the Soviet Union (which itself helped foment much of the instability and revolution in Latin America).
Again, it's like your arguments lack the key components of both depth and balanced perspective of history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow
It's very clear though that this policy is nearly a total failure as country after country rejects the status quo and move towards "More just societies".
Every single Imperial power in history has ultimately failed and the USA will be no exception to this historical rule. You can not build an enduring country by the exploitation of poor powerless people.
What a sad imperial power we are. No colonies, no tribute paid by those we conquer... hell, even the oil contracts in Iraq went to European countries.
Yes, we are a failed modern imperial power indeed!
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow
What we are seeing today is the unravelling of Imperial America. The country will either learn how to become a post Imperial country,standing on it's own merits or continue to seclind until it does.
And America is being placed with an imperial China. May the world have better luck with a nation that TRULY doesn't give a damn what anybody else thinks about them or their foreign policy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow
Just consider that in both the UK and in France the average man lives a far far better life now,"Post colonial" than they did while their countries controlled large portions of the earth. That is totally understandable as Imperialism or colonialism benefit the 1% way out of porportion than anyone else within the system. It also fosters a culture of exploitation that surely is applied just as much to their own citizens as to the exploited foreigners.
I think I've already stated that I would prefer the United States to pull back on propping up the defenses of modern countries and economies that could very well protect themselves.
Would be nice to see some of the funds directed back to American social development. Might be at the expense of social development and programs overseas, but that isn't our problem (though we would surely be blamed for it!)
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