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You use words like "claim" and clearly label your comments as self-centered and antisocial.
What makes you think you're entitled to enjoy the benefits of the economy that society furnishes for your use, that society fosters and incentivizes with its resources, that society protects with its oversight, that society ensures is safe and reliable with its courts, etc., without paying the specified rent for your place within the economy?
What else would someone trying to justify a patently antisocial perspective, such as yours, would say?
WTF are you even taking about? I am PAID from my LABOR. I pay taxes, but not a single DIME of those taxes should go towards those who do not labor for their taxes. I do not work for you. I do not work for society. I work to feed clothe and house ME and MY family. Furthermore, you have NO idea of what kind of charity "I" give, to people who DESERVE it because they TRY very hard to succeed, not just demanding that the evil rich give them something simply because they exist... i.e. free education (student loans), free housing, free food, free transportation, free, free, free...
WTF are you even taking about? I am PAID from my LABOR. I pay taxes, but not a single DIME of those taxes should go towards those who do not labor for their taxes. I do not work for you. I do not work for society. I work to feed clothe and house ME and MY family. Furthermore, if you had ANY idea of what kind of charity "I" give, to people who DESERVE it because they TRY very hard to succeed, not just demanding that the evil rich give them something simply because they exist... i.e. free education (student loans), free housing, free food, free transportation, free, free, free...
Nothing is free... nothing.
Are you an anarchist? Why do you pay taxes at all? Hopefully you and everyone you love will never need any safety net of any form.
My favorite part of the Occupy discrediting via the mainstream media?
Foxnews et al actually convinced poor, aging christian conservatives- ie ignorant people who have children w/ no future, people who would most benefit from an undercutting of corporate fascism- that occupy was some laughable hippie movement. They picked out the craziest folks from the crowds and put a spotlight on them to belittle the cause.
And of course, being dumb and ignorant, it worked.
You see poor/lower middle class folks with no future beyond blue collar work at best mocking the very cause that could change the future of their childrens' lives forever.
It's a sad circle.
It's sad that you believe there in a caste system, and think there is no future beyond blue collar work.
Are you an anarchist? Why do you pay taxes at all? Hopefully you and everyone you love will never need any safety net of any form.
Uh... no.
I re-read what I wrote & I meant to say,
I pay taxes, but not a single DIME of those taxes should go towards those who do not labor for their (instead of taxes, it was meant to say) earnings.
I am NOT opposed to safety nets. But what we have in this country typically is NOT safety nets. Just today in another thread I said,
Quote:
Originally Posted by KS_Referee
...and I don't know a single person who would begrudge someone like that. I am also pretty certain that people like that don't stay on welfare/food stamps for long. They typically come up with a way somehow. They put forth the effort. They don't sit on a politics forum while collecting welfare/food stamps, crying about not getting enough, yet they aren't out getting a 2nd and 3rd job. As a matter of fact, may not have a job at all.
The fact is most of the people who are on these supposed safety nets REFUSE to work. They refuse to become self sufficient, they believe they are entitled to the earnings of another.
A welfare recipient is no more entitled to what I have earned than I am to what they have earned. It is known as private property, and any attempt to take from one, in order to give to another is theft. That is not anarchy.
Tell me something... Why is there still poverty if we have spent several trillion dollars since we've been engaged in fighting the war on poverty? I get the impression you believe all we have to do is take from one who earns and give that to another who doesn't earn... and then they will run out and start earning for themselves. After all they couldn't possibly be capable but lazy, could they?
The fact is most of the people who are on these supposed safety nets REFUSE to work. They refuse to become self sufficient, they believe they are entitled to the earnings of another.
A welfare recipient is no more entitled to what I have earned than I am to what they have earned. It is known as private property, and any attempt to take from one, in order to give to another is theft. That is not anarchy.
Tell me something... Why is there still poverty if we have spent several trillion dollars since we've been engaged in fighting the war on poverty? I get the impression you believe all we have to do is take from one who earns and give that to another who doesn't earn... and then they will run out and start earning for themselves. After all they couldn't possibly be capable but lazy, could they?
I'm sorry, but you are completely and utterly wrong. Some of you sound like a broken record off Faux News or whatever other Corporate media that places the ills of society on those without a voice. My job puts me in close contact with food stamp recipients. THE MAJORITY WORK. Most of those that don't work are elderly and on fixed incomes.
The largest employer in the welfare system is Wal Mart.
Maybe you should be asking why the largest employer in our nation pays wages and sets hours that require Government subsidization.
The War on Poverty is non-existent, I agree the social nets we have in place now do not fight poverty. But we have spent $TRILLIONS and $TRILLIONS fighting a plant that has never harmed a human and $TRILLIONS blowing things up and rebuilding them in The Middle East and have NOTHING to show for it. Maybe complain about that waste instead of complaining about money being used to help our most vulnerable citizens (which is a drop in the olympic sized swimming pool compared to the complete waste I just mentioned). I advise everyone to get a piece of the pie, before it's realized that it was eaten decades ago.
Apparently corporate America and our government didn't get the message.
I don't care if I'm alone on the issue. We need Occupy back or some form of mass protests in this country addressing the issues of income inequality, wage stagnation, and corporate greed.
The Economy is STILL the most important issue in this country and we're currently doing nothing to fix it.
I'd like to start back up the discussion.
Break out the "Occupy" rape tents, the anarchists and bottle tossing rioters want to hold another rally.
I wasn't referring to the time period since 1950. I meant more the last 30 years, during which real wages for the middle class have stagnated, most people lost wealth because their home values declined, income and wealth inequality are at levels not seen since since the 1920s, a record number of people are on food stamps, and there are more people in poverty than ever. Also, the recent recession hit the average person hard, and the recovery has been unequal, overwhelmingly benefiting the wealthy and not the middle class or poor.
The middle class absolutely has not stagnated in the last 30 years. You benefited at an artificially high level prior to the last few decades because prior to the Carter/Volker fed we pushed for job creation at the expense of everything else. We had a period of unprecedented growth at the expense of a huge inflationary risk. It took Volcker's double digit inflation rates to get the economy back under control from that 'prosperity'. Wall Street and corporate america had nothing to do with it.
Quote:
The middle-class has the lifestyle they have despite corporate America, not because of it. If the system wasn't rigged in favor of the large corporations, allowing them to pay paltry wages with no benefits, the middle class would be doing even better.
But this isn't true whatsoever. We are given more benefits today than ever before. Americans work less hours per week today than ever before, and we have more leisure benefits today than ever before. The middle class pays less taxes than the rich as a percentage of total revenue today than ever before. There isn't a single fact to back up what you are saying.
Quote:
In terms of leisure, the largest percentage of all income for poor and rich alike is spent on housing. But after that, the next highest item for the rich, is travel. For the poor and middle-class, it's food.
So the wealthy are the ones spending a lot on leisure. For the average poor family, with each parent working two jobs, I don't think there is much leisure.
You must have missed what I said. The poor and middle class today spend 6x more on leisure today than they did 50 years ago, measuring as a percentage of income. The wealthy are not in that statistic.
Quote:
And having to work two jobs just to survive, probably jobs with no health insurance and poor benefits, yes, I think that is exploitation. I think that anyone who works hard at a full-time job and still needs food stamps to survive is being exploited.
You don't have to work two jobs to survive. You have to work two jobs to have the nice house in the suburbs with all the amenities, which was considered 'wealthy' 50 years ago, not middle class.
Quote:
You demonize the poor and think they don't work hard. I'm talking real opportunity, like access to good schools. In doesn't matter how hard a parent works, if their child goes to a failing, they are nearly always doomed. There are high schools in the U.S. in which less than 80 % of the class graduates. What chance does a child have going to a school like that? Children from poor families who graduate college make less than rich kids who don't graduate college. Rich people who fail at their jobs get bail-outs and golden parachutes, poor people get canned.
I don't think the poor don't work hard. They work very hard. I think the vast majority of people simply don't understand how our economy works, and don't understand how much better they have it due to the very companies they are fighting against. Hell, in 1950 almost a quarter of the country still didn't have running water. That was the definition of poor. Now most people list a dishwasher as an essential, not a luxury. Our poor today have very, very good lives.
I agree 100% on education. Education is the only area in this country where we need to seriously improve. Without serious overhauls in education, nothing will change. A good start would be to do away with teachers unions, pay teachers based on performance, start year-round schooling and longer school days. The south korea model is a great one to look at for ideas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by claudhopper
No they don't! The fat cats benefit, and the rest of us get poorer, less competition and a business climate that is ruled by cronies. The game is rigged, that's how it works.
That isn't how it works. The middle class have better lifestyles today than ever before in history. The middle class works less hours per week today than ever before in history. The middle class today spends more money having fun than ever before in history. Those facts simply don't make good news stories. The game isn't 'rigged'. I come from a background of an alcoholic father and mother who was leaning on me for advice instead of the other way around since a young age. I didn't whine, didn't make excuses, I worked my ass off (70-90 hour weeks), and ended up with a very decent wall-street job. I see a lot of people who had it much better than me simply not succeed because they think "the system is rigged" and spend all their time complaining instead of studying, working, and doing whatever they could to improve themselves.
I'm sorry, but you are completely and utterly wrong. Some of you sound like a broken record off Faux News or whatever other Corporate media that places the ills of society on those without a voice. My job puts me in close contact with food stamp recipients. THE MAJORITY WORK. Most of those that don't work are elderly and on fixed incomes.
The largest employer in the welfare system is Wal Mart.
Maybe you should be asking why the largest employer in our nation pays wages and sets hours that require Government subsidization.
The War on Poverty is non-existent, I agree the social nets we have in place now do not fight poverty. But we have spent $TRILLIONS and $TRILLIONS fighting a plant that has never harmed a human and $TRILLIONS blowing things up and rebuilding them in The Middle East and have NOTHING to show for it. Maybe complain about that waste instead of complaining about money being used to help our most vulnerable citizens (which is a drop in the olympic sized swimming pool compared to the complete waste I just mentioned). I advise everyone to get a piece of the pie, before it's realized that it was eaten decades ago.
How or why am I responsible to feed, clothe, house, medicate, transport, etc. another person who, in 95% of all cases, is facing consequences of their own choices?
Moreover, who are you to demand that even a cent of what I earn must be taken in order to give it to someone who, in your eyes, doesn't have enough? Using your logic, if a group of me and my buddies decides to get together, we ought to be able to demand, with our vote, to steal your home from you because you have far more home than you'll ever NEED... can always earn enough to buy another home... and we just want to give it to some homeless people, we should be able to Do this... because we CARE.
Theft is theft. It matters not if you reached your own hand into my pocket, mugging me at gunpoint, or if you use the FORCE of government to stick your hand into my pocket, mugging me at the threat of being jailed for non-compliance. Theft is theft.
I see you share the mindset that many of the occupy folks have... that Walmart is somehow evil because they are a corporation or because they make TOO much. I bet you also hate bankers and Wall Street investment types because they also make to much, or you think they rig the game, and profit off trading and loaning money. Here's a little tip for you... No one is REQUIRED to invest, just like no one is REQUIRED to borrow money; but the dirty little secret (it isn't a secret to those who have a clue) is, investing is a service industry and one must pay in order to invest, and money is a commodity that one must pay a fee, plus the return of the money, in order to borrow.
So the occupy folks didn't want to play the game by the rules in place. I would agree with you if you said most of those rules are unconstitutional, but the occupy group doesn't want to FIX anything, they just want to complain about how it isn't fair, demanding a piece of the pie that they themselves have not earned, while attempting to break the system in order to achieve an unobtainable, dope smoking, pillaging and raping utopian fantasy. They hate the rules. You hate the rules. Occupiers want no rules. You want your rules, and others want their rules.
I on the other hand want the US Constitution and the 50 separate State Constitutions to be the rules. I want the limits imposed upon the government to be the rule.
I think about things like... there must be over 100,000 different potentially life saving medicines which have been invented... but I cannot access because unconstitutional government RULES say they can not be brought to the market unless they first jump through the ever burdensome and extremely expensive hoops. This very concept limits creativity and competition, because unless you are one of the pharmaceutical companies with a nearly unlimited amount of money, you will NEVER bring a cancer cure to the market.
I think about things like... I wonder if I would be able to afford a brand new car if the government hadn't imposed their unconstitutional laws and regulations upon the car manufacturing industry?
I think about things like... I wonder if home prices would be much more reasonable across the board if not for the unconstitutional laws and regulations placed upon the housing industry?
The occupy group has no solutions. Politicians have no solutions. The only solution I continually hear repeated is the, "Punish the evil rich!" solution which is not a positive solution to any of our current economic problems.
I say force the government to obey the limits of the Constitution, then embrace the LIBERTY and opportunity that will spread like a wild fire, and enjoy THAT ride.
Last edited by KS_Referee; 06-20-2013 at 07:29 PM..
The middle class absolutely has not stagnated in the last 30 years. You benefited at an artificially high level prior to the last few decades because prior to the Carter/Volker fed we pushed for job creation at the expense of everything else. We had a period of unprecedented growth at the expense of a huge inflationary risk. It took Volcker's double digit inflation rates to get the economy back under control from that 'prosperity'. Wall Street and corporate america had nothing to do with it.
But this isn't true whatsoever. We are given more benefits today than ever before. Americans work less hours per week today than ever before, and we have more leisure benefits today than ever before. The middle class pays less taxes than the rich as a percentage of total revenue today than ever before. There isn't a single fact to back up what you are saying.
You must have missed what I said. The poor and middle class today spend 6x more on leisure today than they did 50 years ago, measuring as a percentage of income. The wealthy are not in that statistic.
You don't have to work two jobs to survive. You have to work two jobs to have the nice house in the suburbs with all the amenities, which was considered 'wealthy' 50 years ago, not middle class.
I don't think the poor don't work hard. They work very hard. I think the vast majority of people simply don't understand how our economy works, and don't understand how much better they have it due to the very companies they are fighting against. Hell, in 1950 almost a quarter of the country still didn't have running water. That was the definition of poor. Now most people list a dishwasher as an essential, not a luxury. Our poor today have very, very good lives.
I agree 100% on education. Education is the only area in this country where we need to seriously improve. Without serious overhauls in education, nothing will change. A good start would be to do away with teachers unions, pay teachers based on performance, start year-round schooling and longer school days. The south korea model is a great one to look at for ideas.
That isn't how it works. The middle class have better lifestyles today than ever before in history. The middle class works less hours per week today than ever before in history. The middle class today spends more money having fun than ever before in history. Those facts simply don't make good news stories. The game isn't 'rigged'. I come from a background of an alcoholic father and mother who was leaning on me for advice instead of the other way around since a young age. I didn't whine, didn't make excuses, I worked my ass off (70-90 hour weeks), and ended up with a very decent wall-street job. I see a lot of people who had it much better than me simply not succeed because they think "the system is rigged" and spend all their time complaining instead of studying, working, and doing whatever they could to improve themselves.
You could not be more wrong, and are completely out of touch with the working class of people you snub your nose at.
A man used to be able to work one job and provide for his family. He owned a home, educated his kids, put food on the table, and the mother of his children could stay home to raise those kids properly. They even took vacations together!
Companies lasted, people often worked in one career for 20 years and retired comfortably. Those were the days when middle class had it good.
People like you that measure others by your own yardstick of success are part of the problem. Many people don't seek much in the way of material goods, they just want to maintain self-respect and provide for their own. That is getting harder and harder to do because the free market is gone. Mergers and acquisitions muscle out the little guys that can't compete. Farms are bought up by large conglomerates, commodities are manipulated, prices are subsidized. Even Congress is allowed to place insider bets. The game sucks and yes it is rigged against the little guy. Upward mobility is dead for the average person today. The country where you could be anything you wanted to be, do anything you wanted to do, is gone.
The middle class absolutely has not stagnated in the last 30 years. You benefited at an artificially high level prior to the last few decades because prior to the Carter/Volker fed we pushed for job creation at the expense of everything else. We had a period of unprecedented growth at the expense of a huge inflationary risk. It took Volcker's double digit inflation rates to get the economy back under control from that 'prosperity'. Wall Street and corporate america had nothing to do with it.
I'll have to re-read your post further, but middle-class incomes have indeed stagnated over the last few decades, in real terms. Income for the top 1 % has sky-rocketed by not for everyone else.
"In 1988, the income of an average American taxpayer was $33,400, adjusted for inflation. Fast forward 20 years, and not much had changed: The average income was still just $33,000 in 2008, according to IRS data."
It's even worse for American males, as reported in a recent research paper from MIT and the Brookings Institute:
"Over the past 40 years, a period in which U.S. GDP per capita more than doubled after adjusting for inflation, the annual earnings of the median prime-aged male have actually fallen by 28 percent. Indeed, males at the middle of the wage distribution now earn about the same as their counterparts in the 1950s! This decline reflects both stagnant wages for men on the job, and the fact that, compared with 1969, three times as many men of working age don’t work at all."
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