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No. The "vast majority" of the evolution of America is not defined by skin colors. Does skin color have a role, a major role? Sure.
I'm not hell bent on removing the link to the past. But I'm tired of certain groups using history as a crutch, and excuse, or weak reason for their misery. And I'm tired of it because I don't buy its influence today like you do.
Speaking of the evolution of America - Black America should look around.l Brown America and Asian America isn't standing still.
And I am fine with you being tired of that line of reasoning.....but being tired of a line of reasoning does not increase or decrease the validity of what is being reasoned. You see.....this "fatigue" is at the root of why so many people feel that talking about race and the history of racism......only increases or promotes racism as that fatigue turns to contempt against black people. If anyone visits a forum and can leave the forum having less respect for a race of people...from something one or two people have said.....then its obvious where the real problem is.
Of course, when one does not "buy" into the influence of the history of racism to explain these inequalities of race.....then what are they "buying"? If the line of reasoning is a crutch and excuse....what is the REAL cause? Its interesting that people will argue against that line of reasoning, but will not argue or lament the line of reasoning that "they are buying". I think that is mostly because what they are buying, if lamented, sounds an awful lot like RACISM.....ie.....the buy that blacks behave inferior and perform inferior......because they are inferior and this inferiority leads them to make poorer choices relative to whites, be more irresponsible relative to whites, to be more violent relative to whites, to have more children out of wedlock relative to whites....ect.
Yes, there is a larger percentage of the black population living below the poverty line within the black population. But collectively, if you look at the entire white population, there are still more whites living below the poverty line as a whole, than blacks. What is interesting is, that so many blacks don't realize how immigration reform is going to affect the black population negatively. There are so many pro-illegal blacks, with the idea of having more people of color living in the U.S, being a good thing, that they don't see how this will negatively impact them in the long run. This is one example of how racism within the black community is hurting their own.
Have you ever sought to make the same point about welfare and children born out of wedlock? Statistically, there are more white people on welfare than blacks and more white children or born out of wedlock than are black children. It seems when a statistic is used NOT to denigrate black people, that some white folks will switch the topic to NUMBERS as opposed to PERCENTAGES, to give the impression that the situation is not particular or endemic to black people....and discredit a larger argument that is being made. When the issue is crime, rarely to you hear white people try to chime in and create a "balance" which shows white crime. Racism is another one. Many whites are quick to try to call and create the impression that blacks are just as racist (if not more) than whites, because racism is a negative and the negatives of whites MUST be equalized with blacks to create a normalization. However, no such normalization attempts are made for those things that are generally viewed as positives in favor of whites or negatives in favor of blacks.
Why is there this assumption that blacks "Do not realize"? Blacks do realize the impact of this.....more than you give them credit for. Blacks have calculated, however, that in the aggregate, they will come out better supporting the position of the Democratic Party.....and keeping out republicans, despite what they might lose in regards to immigration. In the long run, blacks, like you, know that these immigrants will likely vote for the Democratic Party and hence ensure going forward more democratic policies for the country, which include things that will offset whatever they might lose in labor competition.
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Is Detroit really turning around? Or is it really a case that Detroit has been so devastated, and has hit bottom so hard, it really has no where to go but up, and you're either exagerating some of that credit, or giving credit where it may not necessarily be deserved, but since I don't live in Detroit, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. This is part of the problem though, in this case with some blacks, you're so worried that a white guy will get any credit. You look at his race first. You should be more concerned with the candidate, that can do the most economic good for Detroit. It is a city that has been devastated, and clearly the most desperate city in this country. Detroit needs the best candidate possilble. But, due to racism; I'm sure there will be many blacks that won't vote for him just because he's white, just like there are many whites that didn't vote for Obama, even though deep down those white voters knew he would do a better job by them.
Again, why the assumption that I am embellishing......if you don't know much about Detroit? Secondly, I have no worries about the white guy getting Credit. That is simply the way America has worked. I do not have to worry about it......it is what it is. I am just taking note of it.....as the beat goes on.
Why not simply vote for whoever seems most qualified? Should be in the interest of everyone one might think...
Maybe there should be an independent candidate rating agency that investigates candidates' education, past achievements, etc., giving them school grades
You see.....this "fatigue" is at the root of why so many people feel that talking about race and the history of racism......only increases or promotes racism as that fatigue turns to contempt against black people. If anyone visits a forum and can leave the forum having less respect for a race of people...from something one or two people have said.....then its obvious where the real problem is.
Good, now we are getting somewhere - you recognize that there is "fatigue" about this circular argument that goes on Forever and ever, without End. I doubt that many ever "leave a forum having less respect for a race of people" - most educated people don't think in terms of "a race of people". My next door neighbor is not "a race of people", he is a good neighbor, friend and member of the community I live in. Same is true of my son's best friend's wife, the daughter of my son's lady friend - none of them (or us) think in terms of "a race of people" ...... but you do, and are teaching that bigotry to your daughter. We can't have a "serious conversation about race" (which most people I know would LOVE to do) because it's "racist" for any White person to even ask a question. That's a cute trick.
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Of course, when one does not "buy" into the influence of the history of racism to explain these inequalities of race.....then what are they "buying"? If the line of reasoning is a crutch and excuse....what is the REAL cause? Its interesting that people will argue against that line of reasoning, but will not argue or lament the line of reasoning that "they are buying". I think that is mostly because what they are buying, if lamented, sounds an awful lot like RACISM.....ie.....the buy that blacks behave inferior and perform inferior......because they are inferior and this inferiority leads them to make poorer choices relative to whites, be more irresponsible relative to whites, to be more violent relative to whites, to have more children out of wedlock relative to whites....ect.
This Nation has a short "history" in the Grand Scheme of the World - we've gone to War against the English, the Germans, the Italians, the Japanese, Communist Korea & Vietnam, the Mexicans + "Cold Wars" against the Chinese, Russians and Cuba ..... and yet, that's all behind us and we moved on to form a greater Union that welcomes these former foes to our Country, our Neighborhoods, our Congress, our Judiciary. I don't "buy" that anyone behaves inferior because they are inferior - I don't even think in those type of terms, I don't know anyone who does ..... but you appear to believe this to the very point of a "White Mayor" getting some sort of "credit" for helping Detroit, when the person in charge of the entire "help Detroit" is the Black man names Kevyn Orr. The dis-connect is striking in your thought process - it's like a blockage of some sort. Us against Them.
You seem inordinately concerned with "inferiority" and "comparisons" ..... that sounds a lot like a personal problem and not an issue that most of the country is going to "buy". I can only 'hope' that you are not teaching your daughter that she is "inferior" is some way based on your perception of the Never-Without-End White Racism toward Blacks. - you do her a grave dis-service if you are.
Nobody is born a Bigot .... Bigots are carefully taught their Bigotry. It is carefully sustained with this type of 'teaching'.
There are all kinds of Bigotry - Bigotry toward another Race, another Sex, another Ethnic group or color, Bigotry toward Religion and non-Religion, Bigotry toward those who have more, and those who have less, and Bigotry aimed at private Bedrooms.
That is really a spurious claim you are making. The Republican Party is essentially the party that represents white people, primarily white males. Let us not forget that this America is a “Representative Republic”. Hence, the party is a reflection of the interest of the people that it represents and all one has to do is look at the national demographic breakdown of those who vote Republican to see that it is the white male party, but of course, with exceptions to that rule.
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This is correct, ideology is "conservative" or "republican", not "Republican Party". Today's republican party is that of outsourcers and CEOs (like Snyder), bosses and CEOs over workers, deregulation - especially of Wall Street, destroying "handouts" and "entitlements" to the poor (welfare, food stamps, S.S., Medicare) while increasing them for the rich (corporate subsidies and lower taxes), zero taxes on capital gains, low taxes on idle rich "job creators", congresses (state or U.S.) run by corporate lobbyists, offshore tax shelters, trickle-down economics (proven a failure) - in short plutocracy. Yeah, it is largely a party of old white "southern strategists" - a large part of its base (these types had to find representation somewhere and the Party badly needs their votes).
A "republic" has a representative (of the people, not of a wealthy class) government. This is not today's Party leadership.
Old RW ideas are again coming to the fore - like restricting those who can vote to the "best" (prosperous) citizens and repealing child-labor laws (good dirt-cheap labor).
This is the present-day ideology of the repub party leadership, a proven failure, so how would this serve a city like Detroit?
Good, now we are getting somewhere - you recognize that there is "fatigue" about this circular argument that goes on Forever and ever, without End. I doubt that many ever "leave a forum having less respect for a race of people" - most educated people don't think in terms of "a race of people". My next door neighbor is not "a race of people", he is a good neighbor, friend and member of the community I live in. Same is true of my son's best friend's wife, the daughter of my son's lady friend - none of them (or us) think in terms of "a race of people" ...... but you do, and are teaching that bigotry to your daughter. We can't have a "serious conversation about race" (which most people I know would LOVE to do) because it's "racist" for any White person to even ask a question. That's a cute trick.
Whites have been "fatigued" since the days of slavery and blacks constant quest for freedom and or equality....which seems to "tire" a lot of white folks.....but who should be more tired....those enduring the effects of prolonged racism or those who have to hear about it? Sounds like, to me, like you are claiming to be 'victimized' be mere verbiage, yet, black folks are expected to endure centuries of discrimination and grin and bear it.
In regards to "educated people"....lol...that is simply you implying indirectly that I am somehow less educated....as there is no historical evidence that suggest racism is restricted to those without education....or to those mostly without education. Racism only requires ignorance in regards to the specific issue of race....while one can hold a PHD in other fields of knowledge. Thus, your premise is faulty and hence any conclusions you build from a sandy premise will collapse.
The other fallacy is this idea or myth that if one accepts "a" black person as a friend, lover or whatever, that by default they have accepted all black people. However, people can and do see individual favorably, while seeing the general group that an individual belongs to unfavorably. What you are trying to get away with, in your argument, is called the fallacy of composition. People guilty of this fallacy try suggest that what is true for the whole is thus true for all parts or, as in your case, that what is true of a part is therefore true for the whole....in other words, that having black people that you see favorably means that you see blacks as a group favorably.
If people generally assume that people are poor because because of some character flaw as individuals (which conservative doctrine seems to suggest), and not extenuating circumstances, then by default such theories of poverty are racist because black poverty is 3 times the rate of white poverty (blacks have more character flaws that whites....which is racist...but the only logical conclusion from the doctrine). If A = B and B = C....then logic says that A = C. Hence, people do not have to articulate that A = C (blacks = inferiority) outright, assuming that such reveals racism, because they are smart enough know that such is seen as racist. However, instead what people do is argue that A = B and that B = C, which is saying that A = C without actually saying it. Then a person like me comes along and deciphers and simplifies the equation......then white folks kicked off and "tired".
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This Nation has a short "history" in the Grand Scheme of the World - we've gone to War against the English, the Germans, the Italians, the Japanese, Communist Korea & Vietnam, the Mexicans + "Cold Wars" against the Chinese, Russians and Cuba ..... and yet, that's all behind us and we moved on to form a greater Union that welcomes these former foes to our Country, our Neighborhoods, our Congress, our Judiciary. I don't "buy" that anyone behaves inferior because they are inferior - I don't even think in those type of terms, I don't know anyone who does ..... but you appear to believe this to the very point of a "White Mayor" getting some sort of "credit" for helping Detroit, when the person in charge of the entire "help Detroit" is the Black man names Kevyn Orr. The dis-connect is striking in your thought process - it's like a blockage of some sort. Us against Them.
No those things are not all behind us. It is the Destruction off all the world major economies in WWII that propelled our nation to its economic zenith as the world and its destruction of Europe and Japan....the worlds economic powers at that time, created a monopoly for the US and made us the world largest net exporter and largest creditor, which increased the standard of living and lifted up America long after those wars ended. Subsequent wars had the opposite effect of draining from the economy in the old "guns or butter" dichotomy. So that is another false premise....that these past events did not have reverberations that transcend time and space and that our current situation if free from the influences of those eras. That is just flat out untrue.
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You seem inordinately concerned with "inferiority" and "comparisons" ..... that sounds a lot like a personal problem and not an issue that most of the country is going to "buy". I can only 'hope' that you are not teaching your daughter that she is "inferior" is some way based on your perception of the Never-Without-End White Racism toward Blacks. - you do her a grave dis-service if you are.
Nobody is born a Bigot .... Bigots are carefully taught their Bigotry. It is carefully sustained with this type of 'teaching'.
There are all kinds of Bigotry - Bigotry toward another Race, another Sex, another Ethnic group or color, Bigotry toward Religion and non-Religion, Bigotry toward those who have more, and those who have less, and Bigotry aimed at private Bedrooms.
Well....you can try as you will......but you are not invalidating CAUSE AND EFFECT. If one chose to cover their ears or close their eyes.....it does not change the the realities that go on. As an African American, its important for me to explain why so many thing afflict blacks disproportionately more than whites, given that black people are not recent immigrants and that most blacks are at least 10 generation Americans. Whether you want to see and note these egregious differences or not does not change the fact that they exist and need to be addressed.
Finally, what you have to realize is that everyone has a subconscious and that what exist in the subconscious is not always known by the conscious mind. Your mind, if only the subconscious, process information it receives in regards to the observable social construct known as "race". That is simply how the mind works. Many people may consciously suppress their subconscious because they do not like what the subconscious really reveals about them. There are test that are given that constantly exposes the racism that exists in the subconscious of many....which is usually always revealed in split second decisions where the conscious mind is not given time to override the conclusion of the subconscious mind. This explains why there is a higher propensity of white police officers shooting to kill blacks when blacks are unarmed.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 08-09-2013 at 05:47 PM..
If people generally assume that people are poor because because of some character flaw as individuals, and not extenuating circumstances, then by default such theories of poverty are racist because black poverty is 3 times the rate of white poverty. If A = B and B = C....then logic says that A = C. Hence, people do not have to articulate that A = C (blacks = inferiority) outright, assuming that such reveals racism, because they are smart enough know that such is seen as racist. However, instead what people do is argue that A = B and that B = C, which is saying that A = C without actually saying it. Then a person like me comes along and deciphers and simplifies the equation......then white folks kicked off and "tired".
What you are ignoring is extenuating circumstances can create character flaws and that a parent's behavior can create extenuating circumstances for their children. It is easy for me to pride myself on my work ethic when truth be told it was my father who instilled it in me. It was not anything I was born with. A child without an active caring male figure in his life is in much more danger to end up dead or in prison than a child with a loving father or significant male figure in his life. Factor out the bastardization rate and the economic and crime statistics of blacks versus whites converge. Blacks are not genetically programmed to have a higher illegitimacy rate. Slavery and Jim Crow and other forms of racism left black America particularly vulnerable to the well-intentioned Great Society programs.
Character flaws are primarily a product of environment, not genes.
What you are ignoring is extenuating circumstances can create character flaws and that a parent's behavior can create extenuating circumstances for their children. It is easy for me to pride myself on my work ethic when truth be told it was my father who instilled it in me. It was not anything I was born with. A child without an active caring male figure in his life is in much more danger to end up dead or in prison than a child with a loving father or significant male figure in his life. Factor out the bastardization rate and the economic and crime statistics of blacks versus whites converge. Blacks are not genetically programmed to have a higher illegitimacy rate. Slavery and Jim Crow and other forms of racism left black America particularly vulnerable to the well-intentioned Great Society programs.
Character flaws are primarily a product of environment, not genes.
I am not ignoring that at all. The question is....what created the extenuating circumstances that corrupted the environments and influenced and reshaped cultures? Again, I argue that every action creates a reaction and what is absent is the accounting for the REACTIONS from centuries of ACTIONS of white racism and discrimination against blacks. Every debit must have an offsetting credit.....but many whites refuse to do the proper accounting.....yet I WILL (don't be mad with me for following the rule of nature) I submit that the REACTION....to racism, created the extenuating circumstances and environments in which character flaws incubate more so than in peoples less impacted by racism. To me, its akin to dropping a nuclear bomb on an area and then a generation later trying to deny that higher incidence of cancer and birth defects are related to the bomb....but rather, poor choices and diet of the people of the area or them not seeking timely medical care....while ignoring and playing down the impact of radiation....which white racism is to black people......radiation that mutates and damages long after the blast of racist laws.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 08-09-2013 at 06:21 PM..
That's why New Orleans is a better city these days.
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