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I don't think that "knowing the will of the Iraqi people" (which is, on its face, an impossibility; it's like saying "Americans think that....") has very much to do with "bringing them 'democracy'". The former is a research project; the latter is a strategic goal.
But isn't democracy supposed to be based on the "the will of the people," as expressed by the majority?
Actually I think this is expressing an interesting difference in the translation of words. Fishmonger has expressed the classical meaning of the word Democracy. I think Yeledaf uses the word more in the sense the administration has pushed the concept; to have a willing base in the Middle East that is malleable to U.S. strategic goals.
The problem becomes as we have found out in Palestine that true Democracies elected in the Middle East may end up with ruling parties that hate our guts. So this becomes a dilemma for us. How do we support the theoretical concepts of Democracy and Freedom even if this interferes with our foreign policy goals and objectives? How do we reconcile this to the world without sacrificing what remains of our global image? Good stuff!
Actually I think this is expressing an interesting difference in the translation of words. Fishmonger has expressed the classical meaning of the word Democracy. I think Yeledaf uses the word more in the sense the administration has pushed the concept; to have a willing base in the Middle East that is malleable to U.S. strategic goals.
The problem becomes as we have found out in Palestine that true Democracies elected in the Middle East may end up with ruling parties that hate our guts. So this becomes a dilemma for us. How do we support the theoretical concepts of Democracy and Freedom even if this interferes with our foreign policy goals and objectives? How do we reconcile this to the world without sacrificing what remains of our global image? Good stuff!
No dilemma Bily, we will use the Israeli method of instilling democracy. If they disagree with us, we call them terrorist or of being corrupted by terrorist and continue slaughtering them until they come around to our manner of thinking. Which at our current rate, we will have killed or displaced every Iraqi in another 17 years.
Actually I think this is expressing an interesting difference in the translation of words. Fishmonger has expressed the classical meaning of the word Democracy. I think Yeledaf uses the word more in the sense the administration has pushed the concept; to have a willing base in the Middle East that is malleable to U.S. strategic goals.
The problem becomes as we have found out in Palestine that true Democracies elected in the Middle East may end up with ruling parties that hate our guts. So this becomes a dilemma for us. How do we support the theoretical concepts of Democracy and Freedom even if this interferes with our foreign policy goals and objectives? How do we reconcile this to the world without sacrificing what remains of our global image? Good stuff!
You think wrong. All of you folks seem to think that I work in the White House and share their unrealistic desire to make Baghdad into Buffalo.
The utter depths of wanton stupidity exemplified by the Palestinians is always a danger -- but pretending that the process is more important than the strategic result is an exercise in academic solipsism.
The concepts of Democracy and Freedom are hardly "theoretical." They are actually vigorous and function exceedingly well among people with enough sense to employ them. That some people lack such sense is hardly the fault of those who give them the opportunity to seize the opportunity for progress, and having given it, must witness their pathetic social and cultural suicide.
You think wrong. All of you folks seem to think that I work in the White House and share their unrealistic desire to make Baghdad into Buffalo.
The utter depths of wanton stupidity exemplified by the Palestinians is always a danger -- but pretending that the process is more important than the strategic result is an exercise in academic solipsism.
The concepts of Democracy and Freedom are hardly "theoretical." They are actually vigorous and function exceedingly well among people with enough sense to employ them. That some people lack such sense is hardly the fault of those who give them the opportunity to seize the opportunity for progress, and having given it, must witness their pathetic social and cultural suicide.
But to be fair. Democracy as we employ it has worked nowhere else in the world, and is a work in process after nearly 250 years. We can debate the reasons for this. But at the same time to assume that we could go in, dismantle the ruling government and military of a country where the people all hate one another passionately and have done so for centuries, and say "Here ya go! Just figure it out, give us some discounted oil and front row seats to your next soccer matches please" is patently bogus and was a precription for failure from the beginning. Democracy does not work in some areas and cultures. We need to accept this and base our strategy on this premise... to be in any way realistic in our foreign policy expectations.
But to be fair. Democracy as we employ it has worked nowhere else in the world, and is a work in process after nearly 250 years. We can debate the reasons for this. But at the same time to assume that we could go in, dismantle the ruling government and military of a country where the people all hate one another passionately and have done so for centuries, and say "Here ya go! Just figure it out, give us some discounted oil and front row seats to your next soccer matches please" is patently bogus and was a precription for failure from the beginning. Democracy does not work in some areas and cultures. We need to accept this and base our strategy on this premise... to be in any way realistic in our foreign policy expectations.
I agree that the US is special -- some might say blessed.
As for the rest, I have never disputed that some people are incapable of ruling themselves.
No dilemma Bily, we will use the Israeli method of instilling democracy. If they disagree with us, we call them terrorist or of being corrupted by terrorist and continue slaughtering them until they come around to our manner of thinking. .
The biggest slaughterer of Palestinians was Jordan.
You think wrong. All of you folks seem to think that I work in the White House and share their unrealistic desire to make Baghdad into Buffalo.
The utter depths of wanton stupidity exemplified by the Palestinians is always a danger -- but pretending that the process is more important than the strategic result is an exercise in academic solipsism.
The concepts of Democracy and Freedom are hardly "theoretical." They are actually vigorous and function exceedingly well among people with enough sense to employ them. That some people lack such sense is hardly the fault of those who give them the opportunity to seize the opportunity for progress, and having given it, must witness their pathetic social and cultural suicide.
I'm not sure that it was "utter depths of wanton stupidity" that led the Palestinians to elect Hamas as their government. People vote as much on domestic policy as foreign policy (especially when they're not affluent or educated enough to have a real reason to care what goes on outside their own borders) and Hamas was regarded as the less corrupt party, and one that cared more about the social welfare of the Palestinian people with their Hamas hospitals, schools, daycare, public works, etc. Hamas has a destructive and indefensible ideology with regards to Israel but this was de-emphasized during the elections. And their civil war is one that the US has helped fuel.
Hamas itself isn't a monolithic organization... much like those in the US, Palestinians and their public officials are faced with the choice of working for either "giant douches or turd sandwiches," although their douches are more giant and their sandwiches more turded than ours.
I'm not sure that it was "utter depths of wanton stupidity" that led the Palestinians to elect Hamas as their government. People vote as much on domestic policy as foreign policy (especially when they're not affluent or educated enough to have a real reason to care what goes on outside their own borders) and Hamas was regarded as the less corrupt party, and one that cared more about the social welfare of the Palestinian people with their Hamas hospitals, schools, daycare, public works, etc. Hamas has a destructive and indefensible ideology with regards to Israel but this was de-emphasized during the elections. And their civil war is one that the US has helped fuel.
Funny thing Fishmonger is the roots of Hamas according some Israeli historians.
Thanks to the Mossad, Israel's "Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks", the Hamas was allowed to reinforce its presence in the occupied territories. Meanwhile, Arafat's Fatah Movement for National Liberation as well as the Palestinian Left were subjected to the most brutal form of repression and intimidation
Let us not forget that it was Israel, which in fact created Hamas. According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".
If we are using the Israeli model as a measure of success in war, then I think we should reconsider our game plan. Which country is financially supporting the other country in order for it to even exist?
I can at least say that I have noticed Bush is attempting to negotiate and use diplomacy with Iran now, much to the chagrin of the war lusters. Have to give the shrub at least a point for trying.
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Working title: Democracies
