Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Celebrating Memorial Day!
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-20-2013, 05:56 PM
 
9,470 posts, read 6,988,882 times
Reputation: 2178

Advertisements

There have been many societies in recorded history. But, FEW of them had economic freedom and individual rights that mattered.

Most of the societies we are familiar with that had ONLY a rich and poor class were nations ruled by emperors, kings, and other regimes with totalitarian levels of power.

The ONLY place in the world, after 1800, where a middle class existed, was America. It had it precisely because the government did not rob the people with high taxes, because free enterprise was the LAW both by statute and by philosophy. People flocked to the US, not because they needed government, but because escaping government allowed them to be self sufficient and to keep what they worked for.

As has been noted, the "middle class" is vanishing. The reason is that economic freedom has vanished, government control has been imposed on everything, and taxation is astronomical. The governments consume over 1/3 of everything produced, confiscating it to use in ways that further obstruct our prosperity.

This is a return to the conditions of the empires we fought to escape in the 1700's. FREEDOM creates the middle class. Government destroys it, turning us into a nation of a politically favored few, and the rest sliding into poverty.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-20-2013, 06:00 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
8,982 posts, read 10,489,042 times
Reputation: 5752
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnwmdk View Post
The ONLY place in the world, after 1800, where a middle class existed, was America.
Several industrialized European countries also developed robust middle classes during the 18th and 19th centuries. As industrialization grew, so did the class of people who were neither aristocrats nor peasants/laborers.

And about your claim that the US government had nothing to do with creating the middle class: Ever hear of the GI Bill?

Finally, I should point out that many European countries still have thriving middle classes, despite much higher levels of taxation and government interference than we have here in the U.S.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-20-2013, 06:22 PM
 
9,470 posts, read 6,988,882 times
Reputation: 2178
Quote:
Originally Posted by pch1013 View Post
Several industrialized European countries also developed robust middle classes during the 18th and 19th centuries. As industrialization grew, so did the class of people who were neither aristocrats nor peasants/laborers.
You haven't refuted my claim. Europe had an extremely rigid class structure. While politically connected NON ROYALTY became more common, and was wealthy, there wasn't any significant mobility from poor to wealthy. THAT, however, existed in the US, and still does.

Quote:
And about your claim that the US government had nothing to do with creating the middle class: Ever hear of the GI Bill?
Yes, I have. History demonstrates that the death of the middle class started soon after WWII. The GI bill had absolutely NOTHING to do with the vast opportunities that existed between 1800 and 1960, and the decline which sharpens and accelerates after that saw reversal ONLY during the results of the Reagan years, and an end during the Clinton years.

Quote:
Finally, I should point out that many European countries still have thriving middle classes, despite much higher levels of taxation and government interference than we have here in the U.S.
It's hard to call people who depend on government handouts to survive daily life as "thriving middle class".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-20-2013, 06:24 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
8,982 posts, read 10,489,042 times
Reputation: 5752
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnwmdk View Post
there wasn't any significant mobility from poor to wealthy. THAT, however, existed in the US, and still does.
Nowadays there is more social mobility in the UK than there is in the US.

And do you seriously think that the 2.2 million WW2 veterans who got free educations thanks to the GI Bill weren't better off as a result?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-20-2013, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Montreal, Quebec
15,080 posts, read 14,363,845 times
Reputation: 9789
Quote:

Originally Posted by pnwmdk


The ONLY place in the world, after 1800, where
a middle class existed, was America.
Riiiiight. Canada's middle class only existed in our fevered imaginations.....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-20-2013, 06:36 PM
 
Location: 500 miles from home
33,942 posts, read 22,610,509 times
Reputation: 25817
Quote:
Originally Posted by pch1013 View Post
Nowadays there is more social mobility in the UK than there is in the US.

And do you seriously think that the 2.2 million WW2 veterans who got free educations thanks to the GI Bill weren't better off as a result?
The GI Bill played a big role in strengthening our middle class.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-20-2013, 06:36 PM
 
9,470 posts, read 6,988,882 times
Reputation: 2178
Quote:
Originally Posted by pch1013 View Post
Nowadays there is more social mobility in the UK than there is in the US.

And do you seriously think that the 2.2 million WW2 veterans who got free educations thanks to the GI Bill weren't better off as a result?
They didn't get "free" educations.

They got educations at everyone else's expense.

I'm sure that taking from one group of people and giving to a much smaller group of people benefits THEM.

That, however, does not improve anything, overall.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-20-2013, 06:37 PM
 
9,470 posts, read 6,988,882 times
Reputation: 2178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringo1 View Post
The GI Bill played a big role in strengthening our middle class.
No, it did not.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-20-2013, 06:39 PM
 
9,470 posts, read 6,988,882 times
Reputation: 2178
Quote:
Originally Posted by weltschmerz View Post
Riiiiight. Canada's middle class only existed in our fevered imaginations.....
Yeah... Describe the economic and individual rights conditions in Canada (1/10 the size of the US) and how that is a highly important factor to our discussion about conditions from 1800 to present.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-20-2013, 06:40 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
8,982 posts, read 10,489,042 times
Reputation: 5752
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnwmdk View Post
Yeah... Describe the economic and individual rights conditions in Canada (1/10 the size of the US) and how that is a highly important factor to our discussion about conditions from 1800 to present.
You stated that a middle class existed "only in the US," which is manifestly wrong. That's why it's relevant.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:50 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top