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Old 11-21-2007, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Zurich, Switzerland/ Piedmont, CA
32,210 posts, read 54,890,687 times
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I tend to think that the true history of Thanksgiving has been a bit romanticized, not to mention sanitized.

But I think enough time has passed that we need to just let it go. Heck, while we're at it, why not be thankful?
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Old 11-21-2007, 05:55 PM
 
17,298 posts, read 25,614,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evlevo View Post
Just like Fox News to "gloss over" the fact and footnote rich points articulated and go right for the last one (which even so has qualifiers)...

For many Indian people, “Thanksgiving” is a time of mourning, of remembering how a gift of generosity was rewarded by theft of land and seed corn, extermination of many from disease and gun, and near total destruction of many more from forced assimilation. As currently celebrated in this country, “Thanksgiving” is a bitter reminder of 500 years of betrayal returned for friendship.


I'm sorry, but I disagree.

There's no reason to hijack the Thanksgiving Holiday to vent frustrations about how Native Americans were treated by European settlers.

The two are mutually exclusive. The feast commemorated by Thanksgiving shouldn't automatically "symbolize" betrayal. It should symbolize the spirit of cooperation, as the betrayal is a separate event.

(And anyway, "rewarded with disease?" As if exotic African and European diseases were somehow "controlled" by the settlers?)

Besides, I'm actually getting a little bored hearing about how otherwise benign holidays have turned into a symbol and time of mourning "on the res". Be it the Fourth of July, Thanksgiving, or Columbus Day, it seems there's an awful lot of symbolism being mourned that is artifical. Perhaps St. Patrick's day will be next, as it too is a day that represents the celebration of a European culture? Make Christmas a day of mourning because the settler's primitive version of Christianity taught them to treat Natives as heathens?

No. Maybe we can create a new holiday that will officially be dedicated to mourning the treatment of Native Americans, and people can stop hijacking other holidays for politics.

After all, why stop at Natives? Maybe Palestinians can get press around Channuka for how the blatant displays of Judaica in December are painful reminders of the treatment of Palestinians at the hands of Israelis?
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Old 11-21-2007, 05:56 PM
 
8,632 posts, read 9,141,079 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charolastra00 View Post
The tribes my ancestors belonged too (I'm about 1/4 Native, just split up between 3 tribes) were all decimated by white settlers in New England. So yeah, Thanksgiving is always a time of mourning and ever since elementary school, I would always get to lead a class discussion about why Thanksgiving is not a happy time. If it ruffles feathers, oh well. After all, do you never tell your kids that Santa Claus isn't real?
Uh What?? My kids had to be told who santa was not wether he was real or not , we chose to live in reality, just like we teach them about thanksgiving and how glad any living Indians today should be that they are living in the home of the brave and land of the free!!! I am german but i dont sit around and mourn what happened in the holocaust, and that is a lot more recent history than when the white settlers decimated your ancestors!!
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Old 11-21-2007, 06:00 PM
 
17,298 posts, read 25,614,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charolastra00 View Post
The tribes my ancestors belonged too (I'm about 1/4 Native, just split up between 3 tribes) were all decimated by white settlers in New England. So yeah, Thanksgiving is always a time of mourning and ever since elementary school, I would always get to lead a class discussion about why Thanksgiving is not a happy time. If it ruffles feathers, oh well. After all, do you never tell your kids that Santa Claus isn't real?

Again, why hijack Thanksgiving specifically? Why mourn a feast? Was there a massacre of Indians that day? Does Thanksgiving commemorate the settler's arrival in the new world? Does it commemorate the founding of the first European town or settlement? No. It's a time to give thanks for blessings and all that good stuff.

Why not have a mourn the day the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock instead, and leave Thanksgiving alone?
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Old 11-21-2007, 06:01 PM
 
11,127 posts, read 12,644,396 times
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Hitler didn't slaughter Jews and gypsies really, only revisionist historians, vindictive Jews would say such a thing...

Ok, so folks under Hitlers orders did it big whooptie doo.


Would it outrage people if someone said this, heck a few folks might even think a person nuts because to deny it would be ridiculous. (or worse, put you on par with Ahmadinejad)

Yet Europeans coming to the America's did in fact pretty much displace and in some cases commit genocide of entire tribes of native peoples. Should you or I feel responsible for this? Should I be able to bring a law suit against the Italians (then Romans) for enslaving my Celtic ancestors?

At what point in the pasts time do people consider the acts of ones ancestors to have little or no consequence on the day at hand? In the meantime, denying the truth helps nothing either, no matter how ugly it may be.

History is a pack of lies agreed upon, someone once said.
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Old 11-21-2007, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LM1 View Post
No, they're proponents of revisionist history.
In some cases, the revisions are factual. In other cases, they're simply meant to rewrite painful facts to conform history to their "equality" based, "evil America/White People/Establishment" ridiculous view of the world.
So, the truth is revisionist and we should continue to spout lies for what reason? The truth is the truth and should have been taught from the onset. Truth does have a way of bursting the denial and lies bubble.
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Old 11-21-2007, 06:10 PM
 
Location: Dallas, Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silas777 View Post
It's fair to tell kids the truth about what happened with the native Americans; in fact we owe it to them. However, I don't see the point in making children feel guilty about Thanksgiving, and telling kids that native Americans view Thanksgiving as a time of mourning is both untrue and borders on abuse. I wouldn't be surprised if some tribes mourn Thanksgiving, but I can't believe they ALL do or that even a majority do.
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Old 11-21-2007, 06:11 PM
 
17,298 posts, read 25,614,215 times
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Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post

Yet Europeans coming to the America's did in fact pretty much displace and in some cases commit genocide of entire tribes of native peoples. Should you or I feel responsible for this? Should I be able to bring a law suit against the Italians (then Romans) for enslaving my Celtic ancestors?
And indeed, if you want to mourn that genocide or slavery, do it properly and not pick some random holiday to focus your anger.

After all, I don't exactly see Jews declaring Oktoberfest a "time of mourning!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper
At what point in the pasts time do people consider the acts of ones ancestors to have little or no consequence on the day at hand? In the meantime, denying the truth helps nothing either, no matter how ugly it may be.
While history will always have consequence on the day at hand, if you've been victimized long enough, people will feel sorry for you and simply start making stuff up about your people's history and romanticize the lost culture to the point it becomes a complete caricature. If you're unlucky, what remains of your people will actually believe that new pop history.

What? You mean Natives often fought with Europeans to wipe out their common enemies? They raided and sold other Indians to settlers for use as slaves? Some tribes held African slaves themselves? No way! Natives are like super cool spiritual hippie vegetarians that had no concept of war, slavery, or property ownership! They also were like, totally in touch with the land which is awesome.
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Old 11-21-2007, 06:15 PM
 
17,298 posts, read 25,614,215 times
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Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
So, the truth is revisionist and we should continue to spout lies for what reason? The truth is the truth and should have been taught from the onset. Truth does have a way of bursting the denial and lies bubble.

What's the truth? That some Native Americans view the Holiday as a time of mourning? Fine.


But why give legitimacy to that point of view when Thanksgiving has nothing to do with the decimation of Indian populations in the New World (incidentally, 95% of casualties by disease, not war).

In other words, why bother teaching it at all? Can you find a different date for which to highlight the "betrayal of American Indians?" Cause unless the betrayal happened or started ON Thanksgiving (which it did not), I'm missing the connection.
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Old 11-21-2007, 06:15 PM
 
Location: Arizona
5,396 posts, read 7,051,777 times
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Well right...there might not have been any massacres on that particular day...but we can all agree I think the Indians got screwed over pretty good shortly thereafter. Poor Squanto ended up getting killed by the tribe for bringing this scourge upon them.

Do we all have to feel guilty watching the Cowboys and Jets and chewing on drumstick, no...but how many people really give a thought to the Native Americans that are the reason for the Holiday, either. They have a sense of family and community, and respect for the land and environment we would do well to emulate. I know Native Americans that have told me they prefer to live in relative poverty on the rez becuse they can maintain some connection to family, tribe and traditions that way. This is more important to them than materialism. It is troubling that some prefer to mock Native Americans when they express their feelings today.
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