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Even if you don´t make it into Gymnasium at 10 there are options for college. You can also transfer to the Gymnasium in the upper levels. If the parents insist pretty much any child can get into the Gymnasium but they may well not keep up as they are very hard and fast paced. The Gymnasium where I live is one of the hardest in our area, some kids go across the state boarder to go to one which is not quite so hard. My daughter was struggling in our Gymnasium and we decided she would be better off in the Realschule we have a really good Realschule in the next town. She still has every opportunity at 12. Likley she will go to a Fachhochschule for economics, business,computer or something..... and not the more prestigious University but even that is still possible with a bit extra work.
Agreed! That's what's done in Germany and many European countries.
BULLCRAP!
You trot this stuff out like you're toilet papering a tree.
They no more deny educational opportunity to anyone than is done on this continent through financial demands.
European countries have for perhaps a hundred years valued their technical trades to the point that their companies would offer apprenticeships to those seeking them with the scholastic requirements from within their labour force and when those people graduated as journeymen they were then summarily told to seek employment elsewhere so that they would broaden their skillsets.
That was the norm for decades over the pond.
The programs were so wide spread throughout Europe that it was a universal training platform that worked very successfully to provide them with skilled trades AS WELL AS the north American continent whose economy and technology were increasing pell mell BUT whose training through apprenticeship programs lagged WAY behind. We benefitted mightily from Europes skilled trades training programs through immigration for those same decades.
Manufacturer's in N.America could never see the value in training someone to then send them to another employer while perhaps hiring someone from another employer to pick up a fuller skillset.
Shortsightedness in skilled trades training is a N.American tradition.
Google failed me on the exact quote but it goes somewhat like this-a society that looks down on plumbing and looks up at philosophy will find themselves without good plumbing or philosophy.
Wow, that made me LOL so hard my eyes were watering!
So incredibly true... Philosophy not moored to reality becomes worthless.
^^I hope your daughter does well. Maybe some extra tutoring would help?
As you can see, her options are being limited, at age 12. We tend to make more allowance for the "late bloomers" here.
I would not assume such based on what was stated. There is always testing and evaluation done in any curriculum or placement. The details of how that occurs are important.
Sounds like the states have a great deal of say-so, as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany
quote:
In order to enter university, students are, as a rule, required to have passed the Abitur examination; since 2009, however, those with a Meisterbrief (master craftsman's diploma) have also been able to apply.[5][6] Those wishing to attend a "university of applied sciences" must, as a rule, have Abitur, Fachhochschulreife, or a Meisterbrief. Lacking those qualifications, pupils are eligible to enter a university or university of applied sciences if they can present additional proof that they will be able to keep up with their fellow students through a Begabtenprüfung or Hochbegabtenstudium.
A special system of apprenticeship called Duale Ausbildung allows pupils on vocational courses to do in-service training in a company as well as at a state school.
There ar many millions of mfg jobs still here, and you are correct, as frankly, in many regions with considerable manufacturing, getting a good management team together is challenging, as for that, you are relying on having a healthy ratio of college graduates to general population.
You're sure about that, eh? All the statistics show that people with college degrees make more than those without.
Sure, when you lump us tradesman in with the welfare recipients and those too stupid to pass college (high school part II), it looks like us HS grads are hurting. I have nothing to be jealous about. I work hard for my money and make more than many of my college grad friends. I'm held to a high standards on my job, just the same as my friends. We just work in different occupations, and learn different things. None is better or superior to the other. I wish some folks would quit viewing college grad > HS grad. That's one reason the trades are hurting for intelligent, hard working young folks today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana
I've posted the education requirements for these various trades so often, but just to satisfy those who think it's not involved, I'll post it again.
Please work your way through this whole thing! Actually, all being an electrician requires in the math field is HIGH SCHOOL ALGEBRA, something almost every high school student takes.
I checked Boeing's machinist apprentice program requirements a few months ago. Candidates must pass the college COMPAS exam with 60 on algebra, 45 for English and 55 for reading, or around those values anyways. I actually think they should require more. These are the folks manufacturing the components that go into airplanes. Lives are depending on their skill and brain power.
I also checked the requirements for the South Carolina based Boeing apprentice program... They were lower in everything. WTH??? Trying hard to break that union I can see. I'd rather have the smarter kids learning how to manufacture aerospace components, even if it costs more. Just another case of corporations being penny wise, pound foolish. This is also what deters the smart kids from pursuing these occupations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana
I'm totally fed up with people who are so jealous of those with college degrees that they poo-poo them like you just did. Your average electrical engineer is the boss at the power company!
I read the article. I don't watch videos; I think I've said that a few times before. Life is too short to waste 5 minutes here, 15 minutes there; people have even posted 30 minute videos and then get mad when others don't watch them.
From the article:
**Of course, there are other reasons foreign companies have moved here. For starters, wages are lower than the national average. Even more important for many manufacturers, unions have made few inroads in South Carolina.**
Yes, wages are lower, and this is why companies like Boeing have a terrible time recruiting the necessary talent in these areas. COL is a little lower, but tradesman often do worse financially in the long run down south. They aren't stupid. They have noticed the trend as well. Many move north, others put up with it, and still others may work towards a common goal of unionizing.
Again, who is jealous of who exactly? I'm not trying to knock them, but I have several college grad friends who went to good schools who are delivering pizzas or flipping burgers. That must be an awful predicament to be in. They're actually worse off than the working poor, since they have that mounting debt to contend with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GER308
No one decides for you what career you peruse in Germany and you can go as far in education as you can qualify for. Even students who don´t qualify for the upper level schools have options for higher learning if they are capable. What you study is up to you.
If you can't perform well enough on the tests, Germany won't waste the time trying to educate you in college. You can pay for it out of pocket, but Germany's goal is to educate people efficiently. Instead of teaching the test, or teaching to the level of the stupidest kid, they divide everyone up based on their strengths and weaknesses.
I also believe German companies require their engineers to start on the floor, actually making the components they plan to engineer later. I believe that is a key reason why they excel in the manufacturing sector. Here in America, many engineers jump right to the top, without ever getting their pretty little hands dirty. The world has voted by buying German, where common sense prevails.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobtn
There ar many millions of mfg jobs still here, and you are correct, as frankly, in many regions with considerable manufacturing, getting a good management team together is challenging, as for that, you are relying on having a healthy ratio of college graduates to general population.
Tell that to the big three in Detroit. They are expecting a huge volume of their skilled laborers to retire in the next 5 years. For 30 years, they depended on their suppliers to train the next generation of skilled workers. Well, when Ford tries to hire a skilled tool and die maker, all they get are crickets. That's what happens when you kick high skilled tradesman around for decades on end. Nobody wants to go into a profession where peanuts are the payment of choice and you're treated like dirt 12 hours a day.
When talking about management, the greatest challenge is finding management staff who actually acknowledges and appreciates the value of their high skilled labor staff. Some seem to believe they are all a bunch of country bumpkins just because they spent 4 years in trade school instead of college. Unfortunately, many of the retiring tradesman will be taking decades of accumulated knowledge with them. It sure isn't being passed down to the next generation...
They start "qualifying" kids at age 10. If you don't pass the test then, you don't get to go on to the college track, right? You don't think that's a little young?
Most teachers recognize which students will do well at an early age. There are always exceptions.
Most teachers recognize which students will do well at an early age. There are always exceptions.
IME, "most teachers" make a lot of mistakes. It's like flipping a coin. They particularly don't think that shy, quiet kids are very bright. My own daughter was one of "those kids". She was not recommended for honors math in 6th grade. Her 5th grade teacher didn't think she was smart enough. Then she got an invitation from Rocky Mountain Talent Search to take the SATs in 7th (I think) based on her 5th grade standardized test math scores! The funny thing is, WE knew she was good at math. She now has a master's in epidemiology.
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