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Secondly, even if God does exist, if he has such a problem with gay marriage, then why exactly doesn't he do something which would make it extremely obvious for us to figure this out, such as by stopping all gay people from being conceived in the first place?
Read the bible and it will tell you why.
Gay people are not born gay. It is sinful man who falls into sin. Homosexuality is because of the fallen nature of man.. they do not follow God.
Man follows their temptations and falls into sin. Their sin separates man from God. Jesus came to tell the good news to man . That they have a power within themselves when they are born of the spirit of God.. to repent of their sin and follow Jesus into his kingdom.
Gay people are not born gay. It is sinful man who falls into sin. Homosexuality is because of the fallen nature of man.. they do not follow God.
Man follows their temptations and falls into sin. Their sin separates man from God. Jesus came to tell the good news to man . That they have a power within themselves when they are born of the spirit of God.. to repent of their sin and follow Jesus into his kingdom.
Gay people are not born gay. It is sinful man who falls into sin. Homosexuality is because of the fallen nature of man.. they do not follow God.
Man follows their temptations and falls into sin. Their sin separates man from God. Jesus came to tell the good news to man . That they have a power within themselves when they are born of the spirit of God.. to repent of their sin and follow Jesus into his kingdom.
What does that even mean? Is any human at birth self-aware of their sexuality? Were you consciense of your sexuality at birth?
Were you conscience of any of your moral distinctions or delimas at birth? Were you conscience that you, as well as every other human being, would be a sinner?
Gay people are not born gay. It is sinful man who falls into sin. Homosexuality is because of the fallen nature of man.. they do not follow God.
Man follows their temptations and falls into sin. Their sin separates man from God. Jesus came to tell the good news to man . That they have a power within themselves when they are born of the spirit of God.. to repent of their sin and follow Jesus into his kingdom.
Please, take this sort of trolling to the Religion forum.
Gay people are not born gay. It is sinful man who falls into sin. Homosexuality is because of the fallen nature of man.. they do not follow God.
Man follows their temptations and falls into sin. Their sin separates man from God. Jesus came to tell the good news to man . That they have a power within themselves when they are born of the spirit of God.. to repent of their sin and follow Jesus into his kingdom.
Born gay or not, this really isn't a religious issue because we have separation of church and state. The question is what is marriage and what purpose does it serve for society? Once we answer that question, we'll know whether we should allow gay and plural marriage (if we're redefining marriage, I assume it will be redefined to allow any type of marriage the particular people involved want so I'm including polygamy).
We haven't answered the question of that marriage is today. Marriage was invented to make sure women (our daughters) and their children were cared for in a day and age when women and children were considered property and women had no control over their biology and as a result very limited ability to earn a living. If this is still the purpose of marriage than we do not need to change marriage law. If we come up with a new purpose for marriage, then we will redefine marriage, legally, in accordance with the new purpose. However, religion won't enter into the picture because this is not a religious decision. The question we need to answer is what is the purpose of marriage. When we answer that, we'll have our answer as to whether we should allow gay marriage and polygamy.
It's a discussion about whether or not we need to redefine marriage. If we are redefining marriage, why wouldn't we look at all groups who want to marry? Why are the desires of the gay community more important than the desires of polygamist communities? It makes no sense to redefine marriage and only consider one minority group that wants the definition of marriage changed to fit their agenda.
Once we determine what the purpose of legal marriage is, we will know who can marry and who cannot. Obviously, marriage is no longer about protecting women and children if we're going to allow gay marriage. Once we have our new purpose for marriage, we'll answer not only whether or not gays can marry but whether or not any other minority group that doesn't fit the traditional definition of marriage may marry as well.
We haven't answered the question yet. Until we do, there is no need to change anything.
So, what is marriage? Is it simply choosing a life partner and legally binding yourself to them? If so, we cannot restrict who marries who. Marriage must be allowed between all consenting adults and with parental consent in states that allow parents to consent.
I'm curious as to how you would redefine marriage to allow gay marriage but exclude polygamy and why you would exclude polygamy.
It's a discussion about whether or not we need to redefine marriage. If we are redefining marriage, why wouldn't we look at all groups who want to marry?
Maybe you see a need, but most of the rest of us don't. But sure, OK, let's consider marriage between groups of people, between adults and children, between people and animals, between people and various household appliances, between people and plants, etc.
Or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Obviously, marriage is no longer about protecting women and children if we're going to allow gay marriage.
Why not? Will the various spousal and parental advantages that married heterosexual couples enjoy somehow not extend to married gay couples and married gay parents?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Once we have our new purpose for marriage, we'll answer not only whether or not gays can marry but whether or not any other minority group that doesn't fit the traditional definition of marriage may marry as well.
See above. Are you really suggesting that same-sex marriage leads to various other types of marriages? Whatever menace you seem to be fearing here, really does not exist.
First off, I think this poll would have been more interesting by age
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
We haven't answered the question of that marriage is today.
Sure we have. It's a legal contract between consenting adults. That contract provides numerous rights/obligations/procedural components and has a set resolution when it is terminated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Marriage was invented
Care to provide a date when marriage was "invented"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
If this is still the purpose of marriage than we do not need to change marriage law.
Even if you believe that you have to understand that society and laws change over time. At one point being married allowed women to be able to own property within their own home. That really isn't an issue today, women can do crazy things like vote, own property, use contraceptives, practice law in Illinois, marry someone of a different race, etc. All stuff that was either restricted or opened up over the history of the US courts.
Yet we still have marriage contracts today.
The purpose has shifted many times throughout history - some early protections are now things that you would never think to have be illegal. This is where we will be in a couple generations with gay marriage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
The question we need to answer is what is the purpose of marriage.
Let's just look at some things that a marriage license confers:
Social Security Survivorship - including looking after children. Gay families often do have children. SS benefits also protect the male when the female dies so your gender twist doesn't work either.
Tons of tax issues - child credit, head of household status, estate taxes, retirement, selling a home, etc
FMLA
Federal Health Benefits - don't ask/don't tell has been abolished, just don't try and get benefits for your partner like a married couple can
Workers Compensation Protection
Joint parenting rights - access to their childs education records for example
Hospital visition rights
Next of Kin Status for Medical Emergencies/Decisions
Custodial rights to their children in event of the death of a spouse
Inherit property
Copyright renewal of work done by dead spouse
Spousal recognition for burial as restricted plots
Over 1,000 more issues that are currently tied to marriage status
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
we'll have our answer as to whether we should allow gay marriage and polygamy.
The answer is pretty clear when you look at it from a contractual level.
Also, polygamy is a complete straw man as a contract between 2 consenting adults that offers various rights, resolutions, etc to 2 consenting adults is simply that - a contract between 2 individuals.
When you add multiple individuals to that contract it starts to change - the rights/laws aren't as portable from a 2 person marriage to a 3+ marriage as they are from mixed gender to same gender
I think polygamy could be accounted for contractually, but it wouldn't be as simple as just giving access to the same laws because the situations are going to be fundamentally different
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