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So I'm suppose to believe a random gif? And even if it were true, its pretty sad that people need to be protected to do such simple things in Muslim nations.
I'm not against trying to accomodate people of different ethnicities. I'm against trying so hard to accomodate ONE GROUP by bending over backwards to keep that one group relatively happy. How many other immigrant groups in the US need so much attention to keep them placated? Most immigrants seem to be pretty happy to just be in the US and being given an opportunity to improve their lives. But with Muslims? Nope. For many this isn't the case.
And as I said above. IF you go to an Islamic nation expecting them to accomodate us, fat chance that will ever happen. So goes the hypocrisy of Muslims.
I was under the impression that America prided itself on being better than third-world hellholes, but maybe I was mistaken.
Perhaps this debate opens up the door to a new debate. Some worry about the historical spread of Islam through the world. If you have never read Beyond Belief: Islamic Excursions Among the Converted Peoples, by VS Naipaul, I strongly recommend you do, to get a feel for how some people may feel.
How do we make all faiths feel that one faith will not seek to change the constitution to reflect their religious views, as they attain majority? How do we prevent the US becoming another Pakistan or Malaysia, in decades to come?
I don't mean to be anti-muslim here, but looking at the history of Islam, the faith has demonstrated a demand of imperial Arabization from its converts. From here, grows the neurosis among some followers, which taints outsiders' view of the faith, in my opinion.
Should we pursue, at the state level, individual laws against religious discrimination and forbidding favoritism to the practices of one faith or the other?
For those who push for "halal" I would encourage you to read what it truly means for food to be Halal, which involves a fair bit of religious symbolism in the process of the food preparation. How do we not tread on the rights of non-Muslims by using their tax dollars to pay for this? Is it best to just say "vegetarian" and remove the issue of religion altogether, making it one of health and ethics?
Then we must consider the methods of butchering...please note key takeaway points, with some parts bolded here for explanation... It seems clear that non-muslim butchers would be unable to provide halal meat products to US institutions who instituted Halal guidelines. A Muslim should perform the slaughtering and recite Tasmiyah or
Shahadah, which fulfils the requirement of dedication. Even in every day
life a Muslim is commanded to commence all his deeds in the name of
Allah
Choice of modern scientific technological methods in vogue have to be
considered with caution and these should be mirroring the Islamic ethos
for them to be acceptable
As far as possible the slaughterer and the bird (sic) should face Qibla or Mecca.
Halal Food Authority mandates that no stunning is allowed to kill the animal
prior to slaughter.
Keep in mind also that "halal" precludes the eating of any pork products or gelatins derived from pork. This would make rather a huge hit on the US pork industry if we require all school meals to be halal. http://www.halalrc.org/images/Resear...lal%20Meat.pdf
Three, we try to accommodate all sorts of groups in this country, the government should try to be accommodating to its citizenry. There are groups lobbying for preferential treatment on multiple, multiple fronts and to think that its a one-sided deal towards Muslims is to GREATLY misunderstand how things are going.
Other than Jews, what other group of immigrants has been so vocal so often in trying to get preferential treatment or exceptions that no other group gets? I don't see the Chinese, Koreans, Indians or pretty much any immigrant group in the US that are like this other than Muslims.
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Four, you portray these Islamic nations as universally being horrible in the way they treat non-Muslim citizens, but then you show that as if it is reason for us to not be helpful to our Muslim citizens and that seems fairly ridiculous and irrelevant. Hopefully if the Islamic countries are being horrible and they see us treating our own Muslim population with respect they may realize that maybe some religious freedom is a good thing. If on the other hand we say hey you see these people that are in a whole different country but just so happen to be a part of the same religion as you, we're going to judge you by what they do. Then we're kinda a-holes
What I'm saying is that the phrase "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" has little meaning for most Muslims. IE they expect you to treat them with the upmost respect and to accept their religion and customs no matter what even in your own country. Yet they would NEVER do the same in Islamic countries for foreigners who visit and live there.
That to me isn't fair. Why should the world do all it can to accomdate Muslims and Islam no matter how messed up and stone age their beliefs are yet in return for all our effort we get crap in return for them when it comes to understanding and respect our customs and beliefs?
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Originally Posted by Oakformonday
Do you really think this country is really doing that much??? Are there millions of Muslims demanding things? I just don't see it. Asking for ONE more lunch option at school doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Especially in a diverse school system like NYC.
That's probably what you said when Muslims got their wish in closing school for a couple of Islamic holidays. Its JUST ONE THING! And now its another thing Muslims are requesting. And its 'just one MORE little thing'. Will you say the same the next time they ask for something too?
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Also, welcome to America. We are made up of many different cultures and religions. It sounds like maybe you prefer that we treat minorities the same way minorities, you perceive, are treated in other countries??? I don't get it. That is NOT what this country is about. Women aren't allowed to drive cars in Saudi Arabia so -- we should do the same here??? Am I reading you correctly?
I prefer we treat all minorities equally and not give special treatment to one group over another. I also prefer that immigrants who come here integrate and accept American values and customs and place them above their own customs and beliefs. That doesn't mean they should abandon everything they believe in just because they become American citizens, but it should mean that whatever they beliefs and customs they have from back in their old country SHOULD NOT take precedence to what we believe here.
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Originally Posted by Auntie77
The USA is a secular nation. We do not need to promote every faith, but we need to provide an environment where it is safe and reasonably easy for people to observe their own faiths.
Making halal (or vegetarian would suffice fine for Hindus, Muslims and Orthodox jews, as was noted before) options available...NOT replacing ALL options with only halal, but providing for that dietary restriction via an option...is a reasonable, sane thing for a secular nation to do in its institutions that provide food.
But as stated previously why? If they're not happy with the food choices, then why not bring their own food? Or buy their food from a halal restaurant? Isn't this what Chinese people would have to do if they wanted Chinese food? Or if Indians wanted Indian food? Why should we accomodate Muslims, but not other immigrant groups?
Quote:
Originally Posted by weltschmerz
I was under the impression that America prided itself on being better than third-world hellholes, but maybe I was mistaken.
That's what America is and should be continuing to do, but NOT when people like Muslims don't appreciate it and especially when they try and exploit it to their benefit without giving anything in return but grief and heartache.
Seriously there's literally nothing that Muslims contribute to America that immigrants from most other countries couldn't contribute as much or more, minus all the drama and pain of having to bend over backwards for them.
Just ask how being as extremely nice as you possibly could to Muslims has worked out for much of Western Europe. I'm betting if they could, most Europeans would love to kick Muslims out of their nations and replace them with immigrants from elsewhere. Less crime, less violence and less trouble and far more benefit.
Last edited by Max Sterling; 03-19-2014 at 07:28 PM..
But as stated previously why? If they're not happy with the food choices, then why not bring their own food? Or buy their food from a halal restaurant? Isn't this what Chinese people would have to do if they wanted Chinese food? Or if Indians wanted Indian food? Why should we accomodate Muslims, but not other immigrant groups?
I don't believe you understood my post immediately before yours. This is not a preference issue, a taste issue. It is a compliance issue as prescribed by their religious doctrine. Muslims believe eating food that is not halal is a sin.
Now lets say you have four underprivileged kids in a classroom, and they all are provided free lunches, because nutrition has been repeatedly proven to be linked to school performance. (I know, you want to say but the little furrin kid shouldn't be here...but too late...he is here, let's play through the scenario.) One suggestion we provided, was simply offering a vegetarian option (prepared without cross-contamination with non-halal foods), and one with meat (not halal, but what has been traditionally offered). This meets the religious compliance needs of students, as well as the preferences of vegetarian students, without sending a message that specific religions are being catered to. Perhaps two or three of the kids might have the meat lunch and the muslim kid gets the vegetarian course...probably at a much lower cost. What harm has that done "our way"?
What I would like to address, is the real issue that I brought up in my post. How, looking forward, can we ensure we continue as a secular society despite shifting demographics? Singapore has done it, Indonesia has done it...we can do it too, but we cannot continue with our heads in the sand pretending we don't have to adapt to a changing world.
I don't believe you understood my post immediately before yours. This is not a preference issue, a taste issue. It is a compliance issue as prescribed by their religious doctrine. Muslims believe eating food that is not halal is a sin.
If its their religious doctrine, then its their problem and no one else's. Why should anyone have to be involved and be forced to accomodate a practice that most others don't subscribe to?
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Now lets say you have four underprivileged kids in a classroom, and they all are provided free lunches, because nutrition has been repeatedly proven to be linked to school performance. (I know, you want to say but the little furrin kid shouldn't be here...but too late...he is here, let's play through the scenario.) One suggestion we provided, was simply offering a vegetarian option (prepared without cross-contamination with non-halal foods), and one with meat (not halal, but what has been traditionally offered). This meets the religious compliance needs of students, as well as the preferences of vegetarian students, without sending a message that specific religions are being catered to. Perhaps two or three of the kids might have the meat lunch and the muslim kid gets the vegetarian course...probably at a much lower cost. What harm has that done "our way"?
Again its a Muslim issue that should have a Muslim solution that shouldn't involve other people. No matter how you try and hide it, that's still the main issue here. Why is it when they have a problem its always we that have to find a solution and fix it for them? If a halal food option is so important to them, again why don't they make it themselves at home? Or else how about finding restaurants that serve halal food and asking them to make lunches for their kids? IE the Muslim community coming together to help each other to solve a Muslim issue?
Why must it always involve us??
Quote:
What I would like to address, is the real issue that I brought up in my post. How, looking forward, can we ensure we continue as a secular society despite shifting demographics? Singapore has done it, Indonesia has done it...we can do it too, but we cannot continue with our heads in the sand pretending we don't have to adapt to a changing world.
It doesn't matter if demographics are shifting. This is AMERICA and what makes us Americans is the laws, customs, beliefs etc that we have had for generations. If immigrants wish to become American citizens, then they should respect all that and try and adapt to them. Again no one is telling them to completely abandon their own culture, but whatever they believe in SHOULD NOT take precedence over what WE believe in. If immigrants find this offensive and cannot accept this basic principal then they shouldn't live here and they should go back to their craphole countries that they were so eager to flee from and believe whatever they want to believe to their heart's content.
Don't you find it interesting that in many non-western nations you usually only have two options:
1. If you wish to live there you have to adapt to their customs and beliefs etc
OR
2. If you don't find this agreeable, then you are free to leave and not live there anymore
Only western nations are FORCED to add another option:
3. If your customs, values, beliefs etc don't mesh with ours, DON'T WORRY we will be more than happy to bend over and accomodate and adapt to whatever you believe in.
This is especially true in Islamic nations where you will never get that third option, but Muslims will ALWAYS expect it when they move to your nation. Again tell me how this is in anyway fair?
If its their religious doctrine, then its their problem and no one else's. Why should anyone have to be involved and be forced to accomodate a practice that most others don't subscribe to?
Again its a Muslim issue that should have a Muslim solution that shouldn't involve other people. No matter how you try and hide it, that's still the main issue here. Why is it when they have a problem its always we that have to find a solution and fix it for them? If a halal food option is so important to them, again why don't they make it themselves at home? Or else how about finding restaurants that serve halal food and asking them to make lunches for their kids? IE the Muslim community coming together to help each other to solve a Muslim issue?
Why must it always involve us??
It doesn't matter if demographics are shifting. This is AMERICA and what makes us Americans is the laws, customs, beliefs etc that we have had for generations. If immigrants wish to become American citizens, then they should respect all that and try and adapt to them. Again no one is telling them to completely abandon their own culture, but whatever they believe in SHOULD NOT take precedence over what WE believe in. If immigrants find this offensive and cannot accept this basic principal then they shouldn't live here and they should go back to their craphole countries that they were so eager to flee from and believe whatever they want to believe to their heart's content.
Don't you find it interesting that in many non-western nations you usually only have two options:
1. If you wish to live there you have to adapt to their customs and beliefs etc
OR
2. If you don't find this agreeable, then you are free to leave and not live there anymore
Only western nations are FORCED to add another option:
3. If your customs, values, beliefs etc don't mesh with ours, DON'T WORRY we will be more than happy to bend over and accomodate and adapt to whatever you believe in.
This is especially true in Islamic nations where you will never get that third option, but Muslims will ALWAYS expect it when they move to your nation. Again tell me how this is in anyway fair?
An interesting bit of NYC history from many generations past:
I guess they'd have to check with Sodexo (one of the big 3 multinational food service companies) to see if they can accommodate them first. That's who provides the school lunches for NYC public schools.
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